critique group format?

[trixie]

Hi,
I'm starting a critique group with some colleagues from a fantasy writing class earlier this year. One of the people asked what format we should use for our critiques.

When we were in class, we focused on the Two C's: Confused and Curious. As readers, we could mention places in the text we were confused ("Who's talking here?" "Where are they?") and bring up things we were curious about ("Why did you kill this person off?" "Why do you believe a prologue is/isn't right for this story?")

Anyone have any suggestions or resources for what to cover in a critique group? I've found a few paltry outlines online, but would like something a bit more substantial.

Thanks!

[bcomet]

There was a great thread on this earlier on...

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2599&hilit=Nathan%27s+Sandwich+Rule

Good guidelines and tasty food!

[Guardian]

First divide the critique questions into two groups. Chapter by chapter reviews and full reviews.

In critiques I used to watch for the followings...

Chapter by chapter reviews...
- Who's talking here? (Missing d-tags or descriptions)
- Where are they? (Missing descriptions)
- Word and name overuse in descriptions (i.e. He, she, it beginnings in sentences. This is my favorite as this one is used to be a common mistake in drafts.).
- Awkward or confusing dialogues and structures (Which is usually originating from missing tags)
- Poor descriptions
- Does it (a part, a motion, an event or the actions) has any cause and effects in the story or they're just there without any reason
- Primary, secondary and tertiary character characteristics (Are they 2D or 3D characters)
- Is there a better way to solve a situation or the present one is the right solution in the story
- Cliches (I used to be very cruel with these ones in my reviews.)
- Characters are not used (Used to appear when multiple characters are present and only one or two is acting in the focus, while the others are doing nothing in the background.).
- Too many characters (Another problem. Sometimes there are dozens of characters, while the writer should use only the half of it.).
- Characters are out of their character (Another problem which is used to appear sometimes and may sound strange when the writer is not giving a background for that change.).

What I would leave out in chapter by chapter reviews and leave only for full reviews...
- Why did you kill this person off? (Personally I wouldn't add this to the chapter by chapter part, because the writers are usually know why they're killing their characters and it's not the reader's job to question their motives. If you're not getting a rightful answer in the end, ask this only that time, but never before that.)
- Why do you believe a prologue is/isn't right for this story? (Same with this one. As a reader you never knew why the writer is chosen that prologue and using it. If you don't get any answer in the end, you may ask this one. Otherwise forget it.).

A novel's essence is to read it from the beginning to the end and to have a big pay off in the end. If there is none, ask these two there, but never before.

Oh, and the last one...
- Why you used x instead of y. I would prefer y. (Personally I used to crawl to the wall when I hear this one, so personally I would suggest to avoid this. Readers sometimes want to shape the novel to their very own taste or they simply can't understand something very trivial because they're lazy to use their imagination and their fantasy. When someone is asking this, take a note near that part, then if it's really trivial and that problem is not originating from the novel, the descriptions, but from the taste of the reader, forget that note.).

Right now these flipped into my mind.

[Margo]

Hi, trixie.

My advice kind of depends on a few variables. Is it a live group or online? Is it a large group - say, more than 4 people? Is there a great variation in experience as writers or is everyone a beginning/intermediate/advanced/semi-pro/pro writer?

In my opinion, the best possible practice (if practical) is a live session long enough for every writer to read their whole story or chapter out loud. Reading only a portion out loud doesn't allow people (the writer included) to feel the pace and the movement of the story/character arc. The first time I heard that, I thought yeah yeah whatever. The first time I tried it with a short story, I was stunned. I actually felt the exact moment I should have ended the story - but hadn't. Steven Gould, who had been listening, pulled me aside later and told me that had been his experience of the story exactly.

Anyway, here are topics I think a critique should cover. It might not be the right level of critique for your group for a number of reasons, but it's a place to start:

-plot progression (inconsistencies, holes, believability, predictability, structural landmarks if using the 3-act structure)
-character/character arc (character changes, pace of change, believability, changes in likability, use of character flaws and strengths, reactivity or proactivity)
-dialogue (believability, tension, purpose, voice, tags)
-effectiveness of opening and closing (story/scene/chapter)
-scene structure (pace, tension, objective, misdirection)
-description (setting, senses, excessive, too sparce)
-the mechanics of style (including distracting stylistic ticks, awkward phrasing, grammar, spelling, punctuation)
-backstory (use of, timing of, amount of)
-cliches
-show v. tell moments
-POV (slips, choice of)

[bcomet]

Guardian and Margo,
Those are great!

[trixie]

Wow, thank you all so much for your thoughts!

To answer a few questions...

There are 5 of us in the group and I would say we are all eager novices. We met through the local writing center and also successfully completed NaNoWriMo last year. We thought to continue the momentum, we'd start a Nano read-through/crit group after the new year. So I suppose this is a very novice crit group; the material will have likely gone through only one informal round of editing.

I will approach this as a learning experience and will hopefully build enough moxie to try a more serious crit group in the future.

Thanks again for the info!

[Margo]

Guardian and Margo,
Those are great!

:) Cool. I love it when I'm helpful.

Wow, thank you all so much for your thoughts!

That's what we're all here for. :) Thoughts - one pence a dozen. :P

There are 5 of us in the group and I would say we are all eager novices.

That first group experience can be tough, and not just because it might not go well. When it does go well, it can still be brain-frying. Remember to keep breathing, don't get too excited when the crits are good, and don't get down when they're not great.

I suggested reading one person's book at a time, but the others suggested reading excerpts from all 5 of us in an effort to keep it fair. I worry that we will lose the "flow" of the stories as we switch every 4-6 chapters to the next selection, but I'm willing to give this a try.

Yeah, I can see both sides of that. The crits would, in my opinion, produce better feedback one book at a time, but it's a lot to ask. People drop out of these things all the time, and I wouldn't be happy if I was the fourth or fifth person in line to have my book critted, only to have two or three members drop out before they got to my WIP.

I will approach this as a learning experience...

Exactly. Can't go wrong with the right attitude.

[Holly]

Hello, Trixie:

Good luck to you with your group.

I meet once a month with several very dedicated people. We bring 4-5 pages, typed, double-spaced, whatever we are working on at the moment, pass out copies, mark them up, discuss, and return the copies to the author.

We don't read aloud because it takes away from concentrating on the writing -- it becomes too rushed. A good speaker can make up for bad writing and vice versa, which we don't want. It should be about writing.

I have exchanged larger excerpts (chapters, etc.) by email with one person in the group, but haven't shared more than 5 pages in the group. There just isn't time. I also have a one on one crit partner, not in the group, that I email larger excerpts.

I think you can make up your own rules, find out what people are willing to do and have time to do.

Editing this to add we all look for something positive to say, and then point out in a constructive way anything that didn't work or that seemed to be a problem -- which could be a million things. Our group is honest, practical, and considerate. Good luck to you.

Also, I agree with Margo that reading aloud has a lot of benefits, but our group voted not to read aloud because we felt the emphasis fell on the oral part and not on the writing.

[bcomet]

I have one crit group that meets every two weeks. We have seven members (used to be eight). At least 4 to 6 of us are always there, though we all try to be, but occasionally, some of our members have out of town time or other obligations. Two people are "up" each session and they email their work ahead, usually 2000-5000 words. It is a slow process to make progress this way, but it's a great group. Three of us, upon completion of a novel have given extra time ahead for reading and held special meetings just for the novels.

Another group meets weekly and everyone reads live, but only shorter things. In some ways, this is also good as everyone moves forward with continuity and everyone who wants gets to share and have feedback.

So far, my thoughts-in-progress are:

For short stories and/or poems or experimentations, either of the above methods works fine.

For novels, I think it is helpful to have two reads by the readers:
one for story and the second for edits.
I want the response to the story first. Then, if that works, the edits are worth going in for.

We have had a member whose chapters were great but whose story fell apart as a whole and has suffered big rewrites, so it is hard to give great feedback on the whole from reading parts.

We had another member, who only heard "the edits" at the end and lost confidence in a great story that was overlooked to focus purely on the edits/corrections needed. It can get tricky.

I think reading fifty pages of someone's work is most productive. Especially if you can budget the time to get everyone "up" at least once a month or more. At the end of eight months or within a year, everyone will complete a draft and everyone will progress in each month. Fifty page reads gives more insight into a larger work than most chapters do alone and is a doable amount to edit or have edited at a time. You can read it twice. Also, as you "correct" your next fifty pages gets sharper.

Just some thoughts...

[polymath]

My sole piece of advice for workshopping is to define what the desired outcome is or outcomes are. Many writers approach workhshopping as a process for developing their projects in progress through presenting them for critique. The overlooked benefit with the greatest potential return is developing critical skills from finding fault in the failings of others' projects. However, in my case, I prefer to focus on the virtues and leave commentary on the failings to others, everwhile conscious of what's subjectively not working for me and reserving commentary on it. From that I made an exponential leap in developing my critical skills. And lo and behold, my commentary speaks loud because the method builds rapport with other writers and gets the best messages across without any undue unpleasantness.

[Mike R]

Our crit group meets every Tuesday.

All of us write novel length fiction.

There are five of us and one person is slated to sub every week; we go in alphabetical order to keep it straight. Usually we hand out 15-20 pages.Others can also submit but usually shorter bits.

We take our copies home and scribble notes on them, bring them back the next week tell them what we think. After which we get a new stack to take home and pick apart. And, the person on the receiving end of the crit gets four marked up copies to take home and study, or burn as the mood dictates.

Sandwich, always sandwich.

Make it a juried group once all the wrinkles have been ironed out. It only takes one nut to bust up the group and there are plenty of nuts out there eager to critique.

Be flexible, life happens.

Don't defend as you are being critiqued, you are not going to be able to explain to everyone who buys your book.

Offer solutions when you critique but don't be upset if they are not used.

Remember, it's your book.

Remember, it's their book.