I prophesize a riot

[Hillsy]

Could do with some thoughts here

I'm sketching out a rough plot/theme or nanowrimo, and I've landed on (what I think to be) a new take on the Prophesy trope/cliche, climaxing in a massive twist. I abhor the prophesy trope, hate it, but I think this slant on it could really work.

So my question: Can this ever work?

Now I'm not like a lot of readers: I won't put a book down until I've finished, even if I hate it. Most people will ditch a book much earlier than that. However, most of us know that the trick to a good twist is to let people make false assumtions. A twist on a cliche would be to lure the reader into thinking they know what's going to happen, then pull the rug out from under them.

So you see the problem. Establish a cliche, then knock it down = twist. But a lot of people will throw in the towel before the cliche is built up enough.

With a cliche SO overdone as prophesy, am I hanging my hat purely on writing SO good, people will overlook the cliche, until it's time to wreck it?

[sierramcconnell]

The only problem with the rug pulling, is that no one will want to read you again, because they know you're one of those writers who like to screw over the reader, and a majority of the readers don't appreciate a good "joke".

[Claudie]

I don't think it's impossible to do. Harry Potter is a prophecy book, and billions of people have read it anyway. It can be done.

The problem is that the more you build on a cliche, the more you need to provide to make the book enjoyable despite this. You need to "cover" your baseline plot in an awesome coat of original and captivating things. Don't, and your book will be shot down faster than you can say "But..."

The other problem is the ending. You have this twist, from what I understand. This new take on the plot! That's awesome, but it's risky. I'm not sure about others, but if I start a book with the cliche prophecy trope, enjoy most of it, I'll expect a twist at the end. So now you not only need a twist. You need a great one, and you need to pull it off masterfully. (For the record, I will forever remain disappointed at the last chapters of Harry Potter).

What you propose isn't impossible, but it'll be hard to both keep readers with you and satisfy them at the end. Good luck, though! There's nothing like your good old trope being twisted around.

EDIT: And yes, if you don't leave enough clues, readers might get mad at you for the rug-pulling. Sierra makes a good point there.

[polymath]

Prophecy, noun. Prophesy, verb. Homonym hazard consideration right there.

I don't find prophecy to be cliché. I find poorly crafted prophecy trite, trivial even.

E.M. Forster in Aspects of the Novel, 1927, comprehensively discusses prophecy's place in fiction. He distinguishes between supernatural prophecy and mundane prophecy, By mundane I mean of the worldly plane, not dull. The subtle distinction Forster makes for supernatural prophecy invokes poetic justice, where good is rewarded and evil punished. That style of prophecy involves a preacher writer. Kurt Vonnegut's Breakfast of Champions, 1973, is an example of a preacher writing, though artfully disguised.

For mundane prophecy Forster notes a mystical transcendence of being. In its simplest form mystically transcendent prophecy transcends poetic justice. In its exalted form, a mystically transcendent transformation of being occurs due to events. Richard Bach's Jonathan Livingston Seagull, 1970, is a noteworthy example of the latter. Mundane prophecy involves a mystical prophet writer. The third category of writer type Forster notes is the visionary writer, one with novel insight into the human condition.

In mundane prophecy, the prophesying work is done up front. It's prepositioned or foreshadowed early on as the direction of the action, the movement from bad fortune to good fortune, good fortune to bad fortune, bad fortune to worse, or bad fortune to worse, with a major reversal in the ending to good fortune. The latter is most satisfying, at least for me. The transformation in an ending is the payoff for readers.

It is in the major reversal of an ending caused by a final crisis that an irrevocable, unequivocal transformation occurs. Some writers and not a few playwrights call minor and major reversals twists, turns, and so on. They can also be refusals, setbacks, letdowns, obstacles, etc. The ancient Greeks call a major reversal a peripetia: an abrupt reversal.

Damon Knight notes plot ending types as conflict resolution, revelation, decision, explanation, solution, twist, and joke *. A master of non-conflict resolution type narratives is O. Henry. "Gift of the Magi" is the best known of his work. It finishes with a revelation ending. Knight labels it a trick ending narrative, and indicts all of O. Henry's many short stories for having trick endings. I disagree. Inspirational revelation is more O. Henry's aesthetic. However, Knight's categorization of ending types is worth investigation.

Narrowing focus down to a narrative which indicts prophecy, I see several directions to take. The self-fulfilling prophecy, the self-serving prophecy, the false prophecy, and the oracle prophecy each invoke predetermination. They invariably invoke poetic justice as well, thus they can come across as thinly veiled preaching.

On the other hand indicting prophecy through the mundane method transcends predetermination and invokes free will. Prophecy as a prevailing condition of groupthink peer cohort pressure presupposes things will always be as they always have been. In other words predetermination. True change is hard to accomplish. It requires an intuition driven transcendence or trial and error or both and free will to reach beyond more of the same old everyday thing.

For me, the principal distinction between preacher, visionary, and prophet writer is the method of delivering the message. Preacher writers tend to beat readers over the head with a Nerf bat. Visionary writers portray the human condition in some narrowed focus and leave message conclusions up to readers. Prophet writers deliver the message by passing it off to narrative's characters' delivery, like from their recognition of the true nature of themselves or the circumstances they're in they are able to take action and change. Ahh, transformation.

* From http://web.archive.org/web/200201241041 ... night/plot

[Margo]

With a cliche SO overdone as prophesy, am I hanging my hat purely on writing SO good, people will overlook the cliche, until it's time to wreck it?

A couple of thoughts...

A prophesy doesn't have to be so cliche the reader can't stand it. In fact, the use of a prophesy usually isn't the problem, in my experience. It's the fact that the prophesy also usually involves multiple cliches. The orphan who is the secret heir SPRINGS to mind. If you stay away from most of the other cliches, the prophesy might not be a problem. If you haven't already, check out the multiple online collections of genre cliches.

Also, I was working on some ideas with an agent, and the agent came up with the idea to incorporate a prophesy. I was a little shocked, as I also thought that was a cliche so tired it couldn't work. Not necessarily so.

[Hillsy]

Sierra: I'm hoping to avoid one of those "They wake up and it was all a dream" Rugpull....More Shamalam and less Dallas....I try and plot as organically as possible so even is an outcome is possible, even believable, if it isn't 'probable' I start getting jittery...will need a lot of backseeding clues once it's done.

Claudie: That's actually quite reassuring. The prophecy I have in mind isn't utterly pervading, but is important enough to set it up for the end. I just panic because I literally roll my eyes whenever I read prophecy or destiny or anything like that. The Dune Trilogy became something I dreaded reading because of it. I was lucky that The Wheel of Time came quite early in my exposure to the Prophecy trope, so it wasn't tainted. As for the ending, well, knowing someone expects a twist means they are willing to go through the early stages of the trope to get there. Then "Deliver on your promises", as Brandon Sanderson would say.

Polymath: Wow, that's dense. And one hell of a reading list. I read really slow so that's probably a months worth right there. Hehe. I think I've got a decent blend of free will and predetermination, or at least the narrative implication of both. That'll have to be heavily set up in the edit if I can't get the tone and implication going naturally.

Margo: Get outaahere! An agent really suggested that? Wow! Maybe I am prejudiced against the prophecy as a plot tool. Problem is I think so many people (and agents) use such strong language as to why they stop reading. I've never left a book unfinished. Not Once (sometimes wish I'd died reading a couple so I didn't have to complete it). And so I tend to be ultra sensitive to what causes people to put books down as I know I'm defficient in that sense. The way some people carry on they have to buy three books just to finish one. Therefore the only tool I have to guage the "put down point" is what makes me audibly groan. A prophecy is one of those.....

Having said that your point of a prophecy cliche being built of cliche's is food for thought, and reassuring. Hell, if an agent says to give it a go.....

[Margo]

I've never left a book unfinished. Not Once (sometimes wish I'd died reading a couple so I didn't have to complete it). And so I tend to be ultra sensitive to what causes people to put books down as I know I'm defficient in that sense. The way some people carry on they have to buy three books just to finish one. Therefore the only tool I have to guage the "put down point" is what makes me audibly groan. A prophecy is one of those.....

Perhaps it would be helpful to start a thread asking people why they might put down books in general and also why they might put down books in your genre. I'd also be interested in seeing the responses.

More Shamalam and less Dallas....

ROTFLMAO. Yeah, I get it.

Hell, if an agent says to give it a go.....

Yeah, coulda knocked me over with a feather. I then discussed his idea with a favorite editor, and she concurred.

[sierramcconnell]

I used to be a person who hated to put books down that were unfinished but then I had so many books going (I read simultaneously) that it didn't matter. I would tell myself I would go back and just wouldn't do it! XD

But it would have to be THAT BAD for me to do it. And I've read some seriously bad books. As long as there's someone in there that I'm interested in, or a character I want to see to the end, I'm good. The minute that person is killed off, if I haven't gotten a backup, I'm not interested anymore.