Lost - Possible Spoilers!

Because that novel isn't going to delay itself
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THB
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Re: Lost - Possible Spoilers!

Post by THB » March 23rd, 2010, 9:48 am

I'm posting a theory on behalf of my husband, who e-mailed this to me this morning:

It is a commentary/allegory on the nature of humanity and religion. The black-smoke guy represents the id (or something like it) – wild, untamed and amoral. Jacob represents religion that man developed to control the id, but the religion is ultimately (inevitably?) immoral, justifying its means with the end of controlling the black-smoke guy. I think the message/theme is that man, in a state of nature, may not look so great, but the religious constructs we develop in an effort to escape that state are even worse.

Hmm.

Steppe
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Re: Lost - Possible Spoilers!

Post by Steppe » March 23rd, 2010, 8:03 pm

Hi guys/gals.

A most thoughtful group of posters.
Very stimulating on a most tricky and cool
plot line journey of unfolding developments.
I'm killing time and soothing my nerves
waiting for last weeks repeat and the new episode.
I believe this is a key episode because many resolutions
have occurred since this season's premier episode in side flashes.

Before reacting to other posters most salient points:

General observation:

Nathan's pet concept "Chekhov's Gun" has appeared and come
into play in the form of the locked room on the submarine.
A future version of Daniel Faraday or a captured Desmond.
If it is an object than it is something like an "Astrolab" that serves
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrolabe
as a carburetor to the Dar-Matter and Dark-Energy engine that is The Island.

The particle accelerator is searching for this in Switzerland.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2Fv81Z7-vY

My firm believe is that the pressure ratio of DE & DM are the
abstract processes of existence and beyond current science.
The Island is existence's desire to humanize the abstract forms
that support existence and consciousness. All the forms ever created.
After reading page nine here a few times and ruminating here are
my speculative conclusions.

The Smoke Monster needed a "loophole" to defeat Jacob.
He found that loophole in the arrival of Richard with the "Black Rock"

Only two players arrived by ship drawn To the Island by The Island.
Richard Alpert decodes in the writers group to R. A.
Desmond decodes as The Christ figure because he was willing to
spend *"three years"* entering that mind blowing sequence.

These characters play into my theory of a progression of five
characters who are representing the abstract processes needed
to keep ; "The basic fabrics of the background environment."
functioning and sustaining linear time as we experience it.

Similar to Desmond and Richard...
Ben and Sayid share a single or double powerful connection.

"Qoute Sam's shotgun of irony"

...

Sam’s: key plotline postulates.

I think the flash sideways could be one of the most significant parts of the final season and it could be the ending of a culmination of a lot of the strange twists the plot has taken in the previous season.

What if, We find that Ben (school teacher) was shot as a child and that's one of the reasons his father decided to remove his from the island?
What if we find that it was Sayid that shot Ben?
What if it turns out that Sayid shot Ben even though in the sideways timeline Sayid never went to the island?
What if Ben meets Sayid in the sideways timeline and all heck breaks loose dragging them all into yet another altered reality?
OF all the people Ben could run into in the sideways timeline and not be reminded of his childhood on the island Locke would be the only one of the main characters that he could meet and not be triggered to a "You were on the island when I was shot" reaction. Funny how Locke is the first and only one that Ben has run into the somehow joined in or was some part of the Dharma Initiative when Ben was young. (The other teacher died before the time twist)
What if Ben's bullet hole sucked everyone in the sideways flashy thing back to the island?

.... Sam's qoute end.

OK OK OK OK OK OK!

True this changes things in a very linear very
concrete way as opposed to the chaos caused by
Faraday, Jack and Juliet cooperating on using the nuke.

Also very importantly as plot anomaly.
Sayid and Ben were both healed by the muddy waters
generated by the smoke monster living under The Temple.
I still assert as earlier that Sayid is representing the mostly noble
desires of The Muslim's to take part in the expansion of "Existence"
A Mohamed Ishmeal competing line to Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

Having mentioned Isaac it would now be the time to inject.
Christian Goodspeed and Jacob are definite surrogates or the real
ancient players of consciousness.
This is important as a progression because Christian has abandoned
Jacob and Isaac/Goodspeed in favor of his new worldlines bid play gambit
in the lifes and bodies of Clair and Jack

Jack's line ending by not having his son David
While Claires continues in her off island child Aaron.

First the five theory.

Hurley vs Lottery
Desmond vs Charles
Ben vs Sayid vs Goodspeed
Lapidus vs. Faraday vs. Charles
Sun Gin & child vs. Smoke Monster.

The first three line positions are harmonic

The loophole that allowed Smoke Monster
to bypass Christian Goodspeed & Jacob is
the more modern religious quantum fields
connecting to the RA Sun God q-fields.
Offering the Island more tools to work with
in its job of serving as a tool to create time
which regulates consciousness.

Another stable ideological couple conflict is:

Bernie & Rose
Trumping
Elois & Charles

By laws of posession they are on The Island and
exerting more word-line influence until tonight maybe.

Gin and Sun are new incoming connection representing (4-8-15-16-23-42)
the 24 <> 42 final counterfeit number in the 4-8-1as5-1as6 Dark Matter ratio 23 vs DM 24<>42.

The "Black Rock" set the imbalance in motion creating characters of superior ability.

Richard and Smoke Monster.

The Island seems to be trying to re-establish its basic balances.

Bernie & Rose Elois & Charles
No Children Faraday-Penny
Desmond.

For Sam especially...

Thinking over your points there is also.

Smoke Monster did not incarnate until "Abbadon" was slain
as the keeper of the keys to the abyss that Smoke Monster
seemed to be mostly confined to although he could wig/wisp out slightly.

So the abyss or core equations are now open and in play.
The Sawyer and Kate characters seem to be the criminal/innovator
lines boring backwards in time and towards the core.
They have no children and are naturally attracted to each other.

The new balance vs. the old balance seems to be

Black-Walter
White-Aaron
Yellow-Sun's Daughter

Vs (The Old)

Black-Rose
White-Bernie
Yellow-Island under Jacobs control.

So outward

Ra - Richard Level-1
Hurley - Buddha Level-2
Desmond - Jesus Level-3
Lapidus - Pilot of The Storm/Island
As Dark Energy "Hurricane Engine" creating time.

Overiding Jack Sawyer Kate Christian Goodspeed Jacob Cartel/Cohorts.

New Three point triangle cartel
of expanding balance

"Walt - Aaron - Kwon"
Trumping
Christian Goodspeed Jacob

Restoring the outward motion of wordlines

Richard-Ra
Hurley-Buddha
Desmond-Jesus
------------------------pushing aside Ben Vs Sayid Balancing Jack vs John
Lapidus
New Three Fold Balance of The Youths.

This falls in line with Five Prime levels plus two expansions.

The quick one thrown by Desmond in the "Swan Station"
and the slow painful tearing pushing of the "Ancient Wheel."

Well its 7:59 That ends this post and the TV awaits a rerun and a new show.

You guys are great.

Notice I didn't broach the John Lennon Vs Bob Dylan Vs Satan templates in play.
I may be radical but I'm keeping my powder dry Lost fans and critical thinkers.
I'd have to spank some government spooks to tell that little flash sideways story...

Its there if you look for it.
Yoko father was a banker just like Dogen.
Heck Lennon was right there "On Top Of Old Smokie..."

Steppe
Posts: 122
Joined: February 12th, 2010, 7:34 pm
Contact:

Re: Lost - Possible Spoilers!

Post by Steppe » March 23rd, 2010, 8:07 pm

Hi guys/gals.

A most thoughtful group of posters.
Very stimulating on a most tricky and cool
plot line journey of unfolding developments.
I'm killing time and soothing my nerves
waiting for last weeks repeat and the new episode.
I believe this is a key episode because many resolutions
have occurred since this season's premier episode in side flashes.

Before reacting to other posters most salient points:

General observation:

Nathan's pet concept "Chekhov's Gun" has appeared and come
into play in the form of the locked room on the submarine.
A future version of Daniel Faraday or a captured Desmond.
If it is an object than it is something like an "Astrolab" that serves
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrolabe
as a carburetor to the Dar-Matter and Dark-Energy engine that is The Island.

The particle accelerator is searching for this in Switzerland.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2Fv81Z7-vY

My firm believe is that the pressure ratio of DE & DM are the
abstract processes of existence and beyond current science.
The Island is existence's desire to humanize the abstract forms
that support existence and consciousness. All the forms ever created.
After reading page nine here a few times and ruminating here are
my speculative conclusions.

The Smoke Monster needed a "loophole" to defeat Jacob.
He found that loophole in the arrival of Richard with the "Black Rock"

Only two players arrived by ship drawn To the Island by The Island.
Richard Alpert decodes in the writers group to R. A.
Desmond decodes as The Christ figure because he was willing to
spend *"three years"* entering that mind blowing sequence.

These characters play into my theory of a progression of five
characters who are representing the abstract processes needed
to keep ; "The basic fabrics of the background environment."
functioning and sustaining linear time as we experience it.

Similar to Desmond and Richard...
Ben and Sayid share a single or double powerful connection.

"Qoute Sam's shotgun of irony"

...

Sam’s: key plotline postulates.

I think the flash sideways could be one of the most significant parts of the final season and it could be the ending of a culmination of a lot of the strange twists the plot has taken in the previous season.

What if, We find that Ben (school teacher) was shot as a child and that's one of the reasons his father decided to remove his from the island?
What if we find that it was Sayid that shot Ben?
What if it turns out that Sayid shot Ben even though in the sideways timeline Sayid never went to the island?
What if Ben meets Sayid in the sideways timeline and all heck breaks loose dragging them all into yet another altered reality?
OF all the people Ben could run into in the sideways timeline and not be reminded of his childhood on the island Locke would be the only one of the main characters that he could meet and not be triggered to a "You were on the island when I was shot" reaction. Funny how Locke is the first and only one that Ben has run into the somehow joined in or was some part of the Dharma Initiative when Ben was young. (The other teacher died before the time twist)
What if Ben's bullet hole sucked everyone in the sideways flashy thing back to the island?

.... Sam's qoute end.

OK OK OK OK OK OK!

True this changes things in a very linear very
concrete way as opposed to the chaos caused by
Faraday, Jack and Juliet cooperating on using the nuke.

Also very importantly as plot anomaly.
Sayid and Ben were both healed by the muddy waters
generated by the smoke monster living under The Temple.
I still assert as earlier that Sayid is representing the mostly noble
desires of The Muslim's to take part in the expansion of "Existence"
A Mohamed Ishmeal competing line to Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

Having mentioned Isaac it would now be the time to inject.
Christian Goodspeed and Jacob are definite surrogates or the real
ancient players of consciousness.
This is important as a progression because Christian has abandoned
Jacob and Isaac/Goodspeed in favor of his new worldlines bid play gambit
in the lifes and bodies of Clair and Jack

Jack's line ending by not having his son David
While Claires continues in her off island child Aaron.

First the five theory.

Hurley vs Lottery
Desmond vs Charles
Ben vs Sayid vs Goodspeed
Lapidus vs. Faraday vs. Charles
Sun Gin & child vs. Smoke Monster.

The first three line positions are harmonic

The loophole that allowed Smoke Monster
to bypass Christian Goodspeed & Jacob is
the more modern religious quantum fields
connecting to the RA Sun God q-fields.
Offering the Island more tools to work with
in its job of serving as a tool to create time
which regulates consciousness.

Another stable ideological couple conflict is:

Bernie & Rose
Trumping
Elois & Charles

By laws of posession they are on The Island and
exerting more word-line influence until tonight maybe.

Gin and Sun are new incoming connection representing (4-8-15-16-23-42)
the 24 <> 42 final counterfeit number in the 4-8-1as5-1as6 Dark Matter ratio 23 vs DM 24<>42.

The "Black Rock" set the imbalance in motion creating characters of superior ability.

Richard and Smoke Monster.

The Island seems to be trying to re-establish its basic balances.

Bernie & Rose Elois & Charles
No Children Faraday-Penny
Desmond.

For Sam especially...

Thinking over your points there is also.

Smoke Monster did not incarnate until "Abbadon" was slain
as the keeper of the keys to the abyss that Smoke Monster
seemed to be mostly confined to although he could wig/wisp out slightly.

So the abyss or core equations are now open and in play.
The Sawyer and Kate characters seem to be the criminal/innovator
lines boring backwards in time and towards the core.
They have no children and are naturally attracted to each other.

The new balance vs. the old balance seems to be

Black-Walter
White-Aaron
Yellow-Sun's Daughter

Vs (The Old)

Black-Rose
White-Bernie
Yellow-Island under Jacobs control.

So outward

Ra - Richard Level-1
Hurley - Buddha Level-2
Desmond - Jesus Level-3
Lapidus - Pilot of The Storm/Island
As Dark Energy "Hurricane Engine" creating time.

Overiding Jack Sawyer Kate Christian Goodspeed Jacob Cartel/Cohorts.

New Three point triangle cartel
of expanding balance

"Walt - Aaron - Kwon"
Trumping
Christian Goodspeed Jacob

Restoring the outward motion of wordlines

Richard-Ra
Hurley-Buddha
Desmond-Jesus
------------------------pushing aside Ben Vs Sayid Balancing Jack vs John
Lapidus
New Three Fold Balance of The Youths.

This falls in line with Five Prime levels plus two expansions.

The quick one thrown by Desmond in the "Swan Station"
and the slow painful tearing pushing of the "Ancient Wheel."

Well its 7:59 That ends this post and the TV awaits a rerun and a new show.

You guys are great.

Notice I didn't broach the John Lennon Vs Bob Dylan Vs Satan templates in play.
I may be radical but I'm keeping my powder dry Lost fans and critical thinkers.
I'd have to spank some government spooks to tell that little flash sideways story...

Its there if you look for it.
Yoko father was a banker just like Dogen.
Heck Lennon was right there "On Top Of Old Smokie..."

Steppe
Posts: 122
Joined: February 12th, 2010, 7:34 pm
Contact:

Re: Lost - Possible Spoilers!

Post by Steppe » March 23rd, 2010, 8:09 pm

I don't know how I posted it twice. Sorry.

tiftruitt
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Re: Lost - Possible Spoilers!

Post by tiftruitt » March 23rd, 2010, 11:29 pm

Holy Hellish Cork Batman! Brilliant episode! The whole time I was watching Richard trapped in the ship, it reminded me of something from a POE story.

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Josin
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Re: Lost - Possible Spoilers!

Post by Josin » March 24th, 2010, 4:22 pm

I'm sticking to my idea of the island as a tesseract.

One of the books Sawyer had in his apartment in sideways world, as well as on the island, was A Wrinkle in Time. # 108 on the wheel is "Wallace" - my bet is that Charles Whidmore's middle name (or mom's maiden name) is Wallace. Charles Wallace was the protag of AWiT, who timetravelled/dimension hopped by tesseract and one of his nemesis was The Black Thing - a sentient, amorphous black cloud of evil.

I'm beginning to think that the loophole wasn't so much MIB finding someone else to kill Jacob as it was him finding a way to kill him inside the statue. Jacob made a point to say no one could come in unless invited, and it's pretty clear the ship almost obliterated the statue (which is impossible - just sayin'. Not to mention that not a single stick of dynamite went off when they supposedly hit that thing hard enough to not only level stone, but catapult the ship into the middle of the jungle.) MiB was trying to get inside where he could kill Jacob.

Any thoughts on the time discrepancy? The episode placed Richard in the Canaries in 1867, but the show had established that The Black Rock was lost at sea in 1845 and the ledger was found in 1852.

(I think for all his claims of non-interference, Jacob and Sawyer have the same plan. Let Dead-locke and Whidmore fight it out.)

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Nathan Bransford
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Re: Lost - Possible Spoilers!

Post by Nathan Bransford » March 24th, 2010, 8:36 pm

Josin, I've been wondering about the loophole a lot too. My guess is that it has something to do with the Man in Black inhabiting Locke's body - he's actually taken the form of one of the "candidates." On the other hand, the MiB didn't actually kill Jacob, Ben did. So.... yeah, not sure.

Is it just me or is this starting to seem more and more like a very complicated version of purgatory? That was my original guess all along, and the good/evil stuff sure makes things look like they're headed that way.

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Josin
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Re: Lost - Possible Spoilers!

Post by Josin » March 24th, 2010, 8:58 pm

It has to be more than purgatory. Someone let out - like Whidmore - wouldn't have spent his life and fortune trying to back into Purgatory.

It could be a variation on Duat, the Egyptian paths of the dead where the soul is weighed against the feather of Ma-at to see if it can pass into eternity, but still - why go back there?

There has to be something in the island itself (not necessarily Jacob/MiB) that's powerful. The black smoke has been called a security system, and it was shown to be able to be controlled - like when Ben called it up after Alex's death, so I'm thinking the power isn't really with the two men. They're just two used to be human guys tied into it. (I"m sure there's significance in the dagger to the two of them.)

As for the smoke itself, I don't think it can just kill anyone it wants. It seems to zero in on negative emotion. It can attack aggressors (the reason Richard warned them not to shoot dead-Locke and Ben told them to get as far away from the mercs as possible), and it can attack those who fear it. The only two who didn't fear it were Locke, who was pulled into the hole, but looked it straight into the "face" and Mr. Eko, who only showed fear when he realized it wasn't actually Yemi he was speaking to - which is when it killed him. Richard was scared on the ship, but Smokey needed him alive, so he scanned him, snatched Isabella's necklace and used that connection to conjure up her likeness.

A tesseract would be a useful power for someone like Whidmore; it would allow travel to wherever and whenever he wanted to be (perhaps controlled with the donkey wheel used like a rudder)

Now, I want to know if it's Desmond inside the locked room on Whidmore's sub.

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Josin
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Re: Lost - Possible Spoilers!

Post by Josin » March 25th, 2010, 4:06 pm

One more thought. Okay, bear with for a minute of pseudo-science.

IF I'm right about the island being in a tesseract, then something with Desmond and Juliet would fit into that.

Start with a point. (in this case a specific person)

Follow that point in one direction, and every point it touches becomes a line. This is everything that person has done/experienced in one dimension.

Follow every point of that line along another axis, and you end up with a square (2 dimensions) - everything a set of people did/experienced. Picking a point at random will place you somewhere in the same past the person experienced, but in another place.

Follow every point of that square along a third axis, and you end up with a cube. (3-dimensions). Reality as we know it exists in those 3 dimensions. Picking a point at random will place you at a random point in this reality.

Now, to make a tesseract, you add a 4th dimension - usually time. It's every point that cube touches as it passes along that 4th axis. You end up with a "hyper cube" with multiple faces and vertices. By moving from one point to another through this cube, you end up in another time or another place, or another reality contained within the tesseract. This requires an immense amount of energy - like the EM discharge or the atomic blast... or turning the donkey wheel.

The donkey wheel has a set point of exit - Tunisia. It works in 2 dimensions, pulling someone from point A to point B in the same time frame.

The EM pulse allowed a person to move back and forth in 3 dimensions (along the timeline, in one reality, like Desmond).

The atomic blast was a wild card. It split the dimensional wall along a different axis, so that instead of going back or forward, the person at the point of impact shunted sideways. Same time, different dimension. They hopped from one face of the hyper cube to another. (like Juliet - that's why she saw it working and not working simultaneously)

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Re: Lost - Possible Spoilers!

Post by owlandsparrow » March 26th, 2010, 9:22 pm

Ooooh, Josin, I like that! After your last post, I tried to imagine what you meant by it being like a tesseract - now that you've explained it a little more, it seems like you might be on to something. I like the way you connected the Donkey Wheel, the EM pulse, and the explosion with each dimension - very cool thoughts.

Steppe
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Re: Lost - Possible Spoilers!

Post by Steppe » March 27th, 2010, 1:12 pm

Tessract

That's a good thought tool or what science calls a "toy model".

I found this wolfram link.
The java app can be manipulated by the left and right mouse
buttons. This depicts the 4th dimension as two wave pulses.
Plus the tesseract never stops moving unless you force it
with right mouse key and form a virtual slice.

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Tesseract.html

This one illustrates your conjecture mightily.

http://www.cut-the-knot.org/Curriculum/ ... ract.shtml

I mulled the tesseract over many times by taking the intro to
a movie and putting it as the lead-in to a mix of music videos.

I forgot temporarily where I got it but sure enough I pirated it
off a movie by the same name. When I saw the trailer I remembered
the plot.

http://www.imdb.com/video/screenplay/vi401932569/

Description:
A psychologist,
an Englishman,
a bellboy and a wounded female assasin
have their fates crossed at a sleazy Bangkok hotel.

There was only a single shift in that one if I remember
correctly and the consciousness draw was that the
psychologist had a dead son who reminded her of
the bell boy. They pinch stuff off each other similar
to crossing into someones dream and altering it.

I'll have to restudy tesseract as a folding form.
Your analysis seems pretty tight on 2D-3D-4D transitions.
I also wrote the blast off as a chaos event that wouldn't
give up to much information as to the charting structure
the writers are obviously adhering to not to get "Lost in Lost"

Although it may be a double tesseract; one inside the other
they are driving towards with the two most powerful
ancient to modern to ancient line-loop continuity players
battling for control of which set of worldlines ultimately dominates.

Charles is very insistent about:
"There's a war coming and we don't want to be on the wrong side."

I also noticed in restarting the series that you never see original Locke
kill that first Boar and maybe Smokie/MIB has been betting on him and
everyone who takes on the idea that: "The Island is a very special place."

With the Tesseract clue and Gravity Wells as computation attractors
or "harmony eaters" consuming forms and spitting out waves and rays
of basic motion.

The Richard episode was cool but predictable.
He got sucked in by chance and partly by decision.

It may foreshadow an outcome in parallel forms.

The Doctor/Jacob Style: was interested in money power.
Ricardo & Sick Wife: sought healing and life's freedom

I go with the group opinion the tactical conflict is MIB/Locke Vs Charles
The strategic conflict is how does the island purge itself of everyone
including MIB and go on with the business of being a secret island of power.

Its sorta like the island is MIB's mom and she is getting sick
of her teenage friends hanging around the basement/garage
smoke time-dope and running post adolescent psycho dramas
on each other because they have nothing better to do.

I liked the way they used the wine bottle to represent: Power Factors.
Jacob held it upright and MIB turned it upside down alluding to all the
dimensional conflicts of centers and outer boundaries and paths to and fro.

I got a feeling that sub doors gonna stay locked a few episodes.

Art

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Re: Lost - Possible Spoilers!

Post by Steppe » March 27th, 2010, 1:23 pm

Josin's tesseract conjecture.
I hope this table stays formatted.
If not I'll give it another go with understrikes


square cube tesseract
vertices 4 8 16
edges 4 12 32
squares 1 6 24
cubes – 1 8


has the key numbers in excepting a 5
if the refolding changes 32 to 23 & 24 to 42

Goes to the possibility of the folding and unfolding tessract
as the model the writers maybe using to stay inspired and on track

Steppe
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Re: Lost - Possible Spoilers!

Post by Steppe » March 27th, 2010, 1:33 pm

The table is at:

http://www.daviddarling.info/encycloped ... eract.html

Down the page 3/4's


________square___cube___tesseract
vertices____4______8________16
edges______4_____12________32
squares____1______6_________24
cubes______0______1_________8


Series 4-8-15-16-23-42 23 as 32 reversed

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Josin
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Re: Lost - Possible Spoilers!

Post by Josin » March 27th, 2010, 3:36 pm

In cross-section, a tesseract can actually look like a cross, so there's your 5 - 4 end points + 1 center point. or the 3/5 length ratio for the length of the arms. 3*5 = 15.

Another visualization can look a lot like an i-ching tile, or the Dharma logo.

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Josin
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Re: Lost - Possible Spoilers!

Post by Josin » March 28th, 2010, 11:05 am

Another thought, about the Candidates.

Sun's set apart from the other possibilities by 2 things (other than gender). She's the only possible who's given birth, but more important is her absence from 1977.

When Charlotte died in 1977, Daniel said that she "moved on" while they stayed there. They had assumed they were the thing moving, but it was the island - which was confirmed by Eloise who said the island was in constant motion, which is why it couldn't be seen.

The Others went along with the island, and the only ones who stayed static where the Losties. Everyone who belonged with the island stayed with the island. (Like Richard telling Locke he hadn't gone anywhere, Locke had when the first flash hit.) Sun is the only candidate who stayed consistently in the same time frame as the island - even when the Ajira flight flew over and the others were pulled back.

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