Progression and style question

[Mark.W.Carson]

I have been writing my book since May of this year. This is a pet story, one I came up with and building on for about ten years now. When I started writing, I was very very raw. I read, but mostly non-fiction and for my area of work. My wife reads tremendous amounts of fiction and has been being quite constructive (cruel, the woman is cruel... j/k) in her criticism, which I believe has helped me find my style.

Originally, I had planned on doing things in first person perspective, but switched to a semi-omniscient third person. That being said, and lagging toward getting to the point, I have a question.

As I progressed toward my writing, and rewriting, and throwing things away and starting over, I set up my outline. Now, my main character does not have a single word of dialogue until the second chapter, and even then it is very sparse. Hell, his name is only mentioned once in the first chapter. He doesn't come into prominent action until chapter 3 or 4 (Out of about 25 in my outline). Does anyone feel that should be a problem? I have posted a part of my first chapter on the forum in the excerpts section.

Thanks,

Mark

[dios4vida]

As I progressed toward my writing, and rewriting, and throwing things away and starting over, I set up my outline. Now, my main character does not have a single word of dialogue until the second chapter, and even then it is very sparse. Hell, his name is only mentioned once in the first chapter. He doesn't come into prominent action until chapter 3 or 4 (Out of about 25 in my outline). Does anyone feel that should be a problem?

Welcome, Mark!

Well, as with all rules of writing, everything can work if done well. In this instance, though, I'd say the odds of doing it well are a bit long. Readers want to know the protagonist, connect with them, and follow them through their journey. A good protag is the reason readers continue in a story. If you take so long to introduce us to our journey-partner, it's gonna be extremely rough to keep readers interested. A good premise will only keep readers interested for so long - after that, they'll need that human connection to stick with it.

I'd suggest going through and seeing if there's a way you can bring your protag to the forefront. Oftentimes, in situations like this, the first chapter or two are either superfluous (backstory) or would work better a little later on. Bringing out the protag and their immediate problems right away - giving us a taste of the novel's conflict and stakes - is always a good way to begin.

[Mark.W.Carson]

Brenda,

Thank you for your reply.
I don't think the reader will be pressed to put down what I wrote. I understand that protagonists, in general, are the ones, in general, that the readers identify with, but the beginning of the story does not simply lay down facts and build up a base for the story to progress. It instead, builds an arc of events that leads in questions that, I hope, will keep pages turning.

Not to give EVERYTHING away, but my main character cannot come into play in the first few chapters (I did try it that way at first, and seriously think it diminished the story). He's not conscious, so he has an excuse.

If you have the time, if you feel up to it, feel free to read the beginning of my 1st chapter in excerpts. Let me know what you think .

[dios4vida]

I did read through your excerpt, just now. First of all, very nice writing! Your tone is very good for this kind of scene. Very vivid, and I did connect with Melinda. I still worry, though, since Lucas is the real protagonist of the story. From this set-up, I would expect to follow Melinda through the entire book. Switching gears from her to Lucas without it seeming abrupt or making the reader wonder why they got attached to Melinda if we're really following Lucas would be a delicate thing, especially since this is YA. However, I can see it working if you did it right.

Just to play devil's advocate here: why do you say this is necessary? We can know that Lucas was in a serious accident and nearly died without having it shown in this way. (Again, I'm not saying this to be rude. If you can explain this out loud with reasons as to the plotting, tension, stakes, etc. then you'll really know it is necessary.)

I would advise a lot of attention to the tone, feel, cadence, and voice of both Melinda's and Lucas' parts of the novel. Make sure it doesn't feel like two separate stories. Also, one thing that might help everything flow is to keep Melinda as a major character, someone we follow from time to time. Just a thought, but I understand that it might not work.

Probably the best way to tell if this truly will work is to find a critique partner or two who will read through this entire section - first with Melinda, then with Lucas to see if it's jarring. Sometimes the only way to know is to see for yourself and get opinions from others, as well.

Good luck!

[Mark.W.Carson]

Ok... It was a suicide attempt. Much of the book is then told from Lucas' perspective in flashbacks.

[polymath]

The excerpt's writing is fairly tight. There's some causation and tension movement, scene detail, character development, a minor bridging complication that's mostly developed, though almost a finalized outcome of the complication.

An area that stands out to me is the scene is depicted in ample detail, though generically. It could be about almost anyone, anywhere, and anytime in recent existence. I don't see any particular markers that would provide a degree of personal and setting (time, place, and situation) specificity.

The things persons interact with, notice, remark upon mark their identity status. For example, the worn out windshield wipers could signal neglect or poverty or a borrowed car, anything really. Unique or idiosyncratic details mark place, time, situation, attitude, and awareness as well as persons. Status markers, for example. What kind of car? Age or condition? Same with the ambulance, the hospital, the parking lot, the triage center, the intensive care unit. How Melinda uniquely, specifically perceives all those things reveals her unique identity.

She seems indifferently oblivious to her vague surroundings, though that might be natural and credible behavior for a panicked mother. Her panic is an effect, though, without a preceding cause to incite her panic and give readers a reason to care that she's panicked.

A reason for introducing a protagonist up front is to introduce a narrative's main dramatic complication. That's what openings are for. An opening isn't finished until a central desire, or goal or need or want, whatever, a purpose is introduced and a central problem or problems opposing achieving the purpose. The sooner the better too, so plot movement begins as soon as possible. Putting Melinda in first position introduces her complication, which seems well in hand by the end of the excerpt and pending an outcome that doesn't seem too far away from finalization. That doesn't to me introduce Lucas' complication.

I'd label it a false start. Readers are introduced to Melinda but the story's reportedly about Lucas. The plot won't start moving until Lucas' complication is introduced and readers start to care about what will happen to him, what his desire is, what opposes that desire, and what the stakes and possible outcomes are for him. An opening scene reporting Lucas and Melinda interacting, say, her coming upon his inciting trauma scene, a moment of intimate dialogue when he's wheeled to the ambulance even, could span the gamut.

[Sleeping Beauty]

I'd read up on the Decoy Protagonist page at tv tropes. That site's a goldmine for writing craft.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... rotagonist

[Mark.W.Carson]

Polymath,

I realize I could probably due with some "more" tightening up on this, as can other parts of my writing. This is a progression of the idea into the current form. In that, some of the imagery is not to signify mere social status, but a few other things that come out in later bits, such as time management, to some extent money/status, and her own character's development. Melinda is not going to be a non-character who is simply tossed aside. She's the main's mother.

An example, albeit not the perfect one, is that Harry Potter is not really introduced, in person, in the first chapter. I am not copying the style nor the intro. This was in part done as a suggestion by my wife, and while I was not sure how I would like it, I actually think it opens the reader up to keep going to see where things progress.

That being said, I realize this breaks conventional form in some ways, and that means I have to be even more vigilant to make sure I don't screw up cohesion and tick readers. The progression of the story is, at some central layers, designed to keep the reader guessing. This is not a suspense thriller, but there are elements of suspense. This is not set in a kingdom far away, yet there are major elements of fantasy within. It is not a romance, but there are major points toward that. And, while I do believe this story should stand on its own, this should be the first in a series of 3 or 4.

[Mark.W.Carson]

Sleeping,

Very interesting. I noticed, by clicking through links, that I do have some elements of that, and other common tropes, but not "quite as described." Also, many of them do not exist in this book, and will hopefully come out in the continuation of the story. I do get the feeling that if done correctly, a common trope can be used, so long as it is not overly trite and does not make the reader go "Oh come on!" when they see them.

[polymath]

Imagery works when it uses concrete objects to express intangible concepts, like symbolism. I don't mean status in the sense of wealth or social standing but in its broadest meanings, emotional status, health status, state of mind, age, ethnicity, rural, urban, or metropolis, etc., status. Melinda's status, I know she's female and in a panicked frenzy, though the term dollop clashes with the latter disharmoniously. Dollop has pleasant connotations of whipped cream. I understood Melinda was a secondary protagonist, a deuteragonist.

Yes, Harry is not introduced in the flesh, so to speak, in the Potter saga's first chapter, though his main dramatic complication, the complication of the first novel, and the complication of the saga is fully realized in the first chapter, and the stakes and outcomes.

"it opens the reader up to keep going to see where things progress." Curiosity without empathy is a weak tension driver.

Franky, I don't see a break with convention. Nonlinear timelines are not so unconventional. Keeping readers guessing is a convention of struggling writers who incompletely understand how tension works. Empathy is one attribute of tension, caring what will happen to a protagonist on an insuperable journey, physical or emotional or both. Curiosity driven by suspense is the other significant attribute of tension. Fundamentally, that is artfully posing a dramatic question, the generic of which is what will happen. I felt neither empathy for nor curiosity about Melinda because I didn't get to know her enough to care about her complication. The question running while I read was instead why should I care.

I felt information necessary to understand the story was untimely withheld. Withholding information is an inartful cleverness convention of struggling writers' writing. For starters, withheld information is the mass of causes Melinda is incited by. In medias res, though it means in the middle of the action, still should logically begin with a cause in order to orient readers to persons, places, times, situations, attitudes, and awarenesses. Disoriented readers is a consequence of withholding, and again, a convention of struggling writers' writing.

[dios4vida]

More of my two cents.

Okay, as this is, here's what we know at the beginning: Melinda's son is rushed to the hospital. His life is in critical danger. She's distraught.

These are all good things, but readers are crazy picky these days. They want to be drawn in instantly and have questions they must know the answer to. Right now, your question is "will Lucas live." It's a good question, but since we aren't given much info on him or anything more than Melinda's emotions regarding the situation (which is very good, but it isn't very personal), we aren't invested. At this moment, Lucas can live and we'll be happy that Melinda doesn't have to suffer her son's death, but we aren't sure where the story will go - but if Lucas dies, then we'll follow Melinda through her search for justice or peace or whatever it is she'd search for. Since Lucas is the protag, this is my main cause of concern.

If I were writing a story like this, (personally) I'd start with Lucas waking up in the hospital. That would be an opening with a lot of tension (where am I?), emotion (what happened...why am I still alive - and the relief/depression/reflection at that realization), and give a sense of the situation (his reaction to the tubes, monitors, his mother's expression, etc) that would clearly reveal what happened from the protagonist's point of view. It would instantly connect readers to Lucas and give them questions they'll want answers to (why did he try to commit suicide?) which will keep them reading into the main conflict.

Since you mentioned that it has fantasy elements, you might be doing it this way to introduce some kind of supernatural experience while they're trying to ressucitate him. This could be done by Lucas having strange memories of the time, or feeling the supernatural, or some other way that when he wakes up he has another question: what was that? And that would be yet another driving question to carry the reader into the main conflict.

In the end, though, this is your book and you can write it however you want. I would advise caution once more, and reading up on what makes a good opening (the protag introduction, immediate questions, sense of emotion, etc. that I've mentioned). A lot of agents have blogged about the topic, and craft books by "the greats" like Donald Maass and James Scott Bell will have info on this, as well.

[Mark.W.Carson]

Polymath,

I understand your opinion, and your right to one, but I do still think you are mistaken. The excerpt you read was just that, a piece, a fragment of the story at hand. The information is not being withheld, it is being delivered, just not all at once, which would serve to further confuse the reader or inundate them with back story. Instead, I chose to create an entry point that happens to be further along in the story. I do take offense at the tone you are using, however.

You cannot, from less than one chapter, understand what a story is or where it is going. This is not a children's book, nor is it something that is laid out in fine detail at the onset, or there would be no need to continue reading. If the story delivers all its secrets on the first page, why do people continue? Why do so many people, despite themselves, skip to the last few pages to find out how a story ends?

The concept of empathy is not one you can always, nor should always deliver immediately. Tension, and empathy, develop on the journey, and the journey is not expressed in a single page, nor even a single chapter. There is a lot of depth that cannot be seen from the first page of any story. Using Harry Potter again, how many people would have understood who he is, who he becomes and how he progresses there, even by the third chapter of the book? In Tolkien's books, do you understand the significance of the ring when Bilbo finds it?

In my story, information is not withheld, instead it is revealed. However, I am not looking to write a haiku, that can be absorbed in a single viewing. To me, a good book is like unwrapping a present. First, you may see the bow, and the ribbon, but that only draws you to it. The present lies under the wrappings, within the box and finally under the tissue paper. The process of receiving it, unwrapping it and the realizations of what you have obtained are all part of the process of the gift. The same can be said of a story. Nuance and drama take time to be released.

You may not have identified with Melinda, and that is fine. There are reasons why there are synopses, and blurbs about books, as well as loglines. Perhaps that they would have given you enough desire to continue reading past the first 1000+ words. If not, then this is not the book for you.

Also, as far as convention, I was not merely directing it toward nonlinear timelines, but the fact that the book is not specifically designated into the sub-genre that many books today seem to be. There are elements of more. Again, that will not show in the first chapter, and keeping readers guessing IS, in fact, a good method to keep them reading. That is the very element of suspense, as you wonder what may happen. This is not the same as the article that Nathan wrote about with the trap door issue.

[Mark.W.Carson]

Brenda,

The issue is, I have it all planned out . I realize now that while I was asking the question, I was doing the "Coin flip" in my head. The adage that flipping a coin is a great way to determine what you should do, because you know what you really want to happen while it is in the air appears to be true. The fantasy elements are not even a consideration in the first few chapters. That comes with Lucas' story.

This is only part of, a finished chapter (albeit with minor edits still ongoing). I have written the 2nd chapter already, as well as vignettes that are being adapted for the third and fourth. I am open to change things, as I have multiple times, but it will depend on what the readers actually like.

Ultimately, this is not created out of my desire to write, but rather my desire to tell THIS story. This story has been hanging around my head for a long time, and while I may actually develop other stories down the line that I wish to write, and I have heard of many pitfalls of pet stories, I am willing to fail at trying. I don't fear it. I just want to do the best I can to tell this.

Edited to add (I could not do it your way. In my story, Lucas is in no way shape or form confused about what has happened )

[polymath]

Out of every two short or long narratives I read, one is one I wouldn't ordinarily read for my entertainment comfort zone. I've read quite a few novels, short stories, and short and long creative nonfiction essays this year, commented on many of them.

Sometimes there's a happy coincidence of reading in a new arena and enjoying it once I understand the method and the message, hopefully by the ending of the first dramatic unit opening (chapter, scene, whatever). Fewer than one in ten published works I read are fully realized and sufficiently accessible to be a pleasure to read from beginning to end. It's not that my standards are high. They aren't. Despite how competitively vexing the publishing culture is, the standards are low because few publishers anymore care about the art over the revenue.

I've also read many short and long projects in progress this year. Fewer than one in a hundred was sufficiently realized, to me and others, to not benefit from adjustment suggestions.

When a writer and I meaningfully connect on a point of writing, it's always a pleasant surprise. The opposite is almost always the case though. That's okay. I don't respond to a writing solely for a writer's benefit, whether or not I share my comments, no matter if they fall on deaf ears. I do it to refine my writing, revision, and editing skills.

[Mark.W.Carson]

Not everything will get to you in a meaningful way. You seem to have high standards, and it may be they are not abnormally, high. However, like some recipes I have made in the kitchen, let them simmer. The ingredients alone may not be pleasing, but in combination and orchestration they fall into place.

If I get published, I'll see about providing you with a copy. Then, you can read it and see if you enjoy it.