POV change, linear storyline.
POV change, linear storyline.
I recently shifted my WIP, PREACHER'S BLOOD, from third person to first person. The shift feels good because i can get into my character's head more and we see how he sees things and views the events as they happen around him. I am really enjoying the switch.
However, what i am wondering is if the storyline is too linear. The main character takes each thread he finds, unwinds it, and then follows it to the next one in an effort to find his missing sister. It feels like it may be missing something, like it turns out that a character from early in the story is really involved or something like that, some kind of unforseen thing going on. Thing is, the story isn't littered with a ton of characters. There's the main character, PREACHER, and a female he is working with whose sister died very early on. I am wondering if there is a way to add that unexpected jolt. I cant have the woman hes working with involved because i cant find a way to have it make sense, especially if she is working with him to unravel the mystery. Is this a problem? If so, is there a way to solve it?
The other characters introduced are:
Max - my main character's best friend.
Dr. Stolino - business partner of a presumably dead doctor who created a fertility treatment that didn't seem to die with him.
Mayori Ki - sister of a girl who died at the beginning and set the main character about going after his sister.
I hope all are well this morning.
However, what i am wondering is if the storyline is too linear. The main character takes each thread he finds, unwinds it, and then follows it to the next one in an effort to find his missing sister. It feels like it may be missing something, like it turns out that a character from early in the story is really involved or something like that, some kind of unforseen thing going on. Thing is, the story isn't littered with a ton of characters. There's the main character, PREACHER, and a female he is working with whose sister died very early on. I am wondering if there is a way to add that unexpected jolt. I cant have the woman hes working with involved because i cant find a way to have it make sense, especially if she is working with him to unravel the mystery. Is this a problem? If so, is there a way to solve it?
The other characters introduced are:
Max - my main character's best friend.
Dr. Stolino - business partner of a presumably dead doctor who created a fertility treatment that didn't seem to die with him.
Mayori Ki - sister of a girl who died at the beginning and set the main character about going after his sister.
I hope all are well this morning.
Re: POV change, linear storyline.
Morning, Preacher. 
I think that as long as your characters are strong and your plot is sufficiently tense (the whole tension-on-each-page kind of thing) then you don't necessarily have to add anything. The only problem I can potentially see from your summary would be the possibility of predictability. If the answer to the riddle is right under Preacher's nose, it'd better be very, very hidden or a shock to all. Otherwise the readers will have figured out the puzzle long before Preacher and that usually doesn't go well for your genre.
Whenever I'm feeling the need to twist things up, I try to go with some complication within the character. What if something Preacher find in the case conflicts with his morals? Or dredges up some secret he's been trying to keep from the world? I find that's a great way to add a lot of tension and interest without having to completely change the setup of the plot. Since you've moved into Preacher's head, this might be a great option to consider. A bit of digging into Preacher's actions and motivations might come up with something suprising to play with.
Also, you can take a look at your secondary characters' motivations and personalities. Could one have some ulterior motive going on with the investigation, even if it's not related directly to the sister? (Like the sister's being held by the mafia and one of the secondary characters is hunted by the mafia so he doesn't want Preacher to find them, or he's part of the mafia so he doesn't want Preacher to find them, that kind of thing.) If you really feel that you need something, you can also create a new character to insert for just that reason. There's nothing wrong with adding complications. In fact, writing a novel is one place where complications are good.
Good luck, hope I helped even a little.
I think that as long as your characters are strong and your plot is sufficiently tense (the whole tension-on-each-page kind of thing) then you don't necessarily have to add anything. The only problem I can potentially see from your summary would be the possibility of predictability. If the answer to the riddle is right under Preacher's nose, it'd better be very, very hidden or a shock to all. Otherwise the readers will have figured out the puzzle long before Preacher and that usually doesn't go well for your genre.
Whenever I'm feeling the need to twist things up, I try to go with some complication within the character. What if something Preacher find in the case conflicts with his morals? Or dredges up some secret he's been trying to keep from the world? I find that's a great way to add a lot of tension and interest without having to completely change the setup of the plot. Since you've moved into Preacher's head, this might be a great option to consider. A bit of digging into Preacher's actions and motivations might come up with something suprising to play with.
Also, you can take a look at your secondary characters' motivations and personalities. Could one have some ulterior motive going on with the investigation, even if it's not related directly to the sister? (Like the sister's being held by the mafia and one of the secondary characters is hunted by the mafia so he doesn't want Preacher to find them, or he's part of the mafia so he doesn't want Preacher to find them, that kind of thing.) If you really feel that you need something, you can also create a new character to insert for just that reason. There's nothing wrong with adding complications. In fact, writing a novel is one place where complications are good.
Good luck, hope I helped even a little.
Brenda :)
Inspiration isn't about the muse. Inspiration is working until something clicks. ~Brandon Sanderson
Inspiration isn't about the muse. Inspiration is working until something clicks. ~Brandon Sanderson
Re: POV change, linear storyline.
I feel like the tension comes from the chase and the unravelling of the facts. There have been, of course, physical confrontations trying to keep the mani character from continuing to dig. Its gonna be figured out the there is some kind of a radical fertility treatment involved but i thin that the tension still comes because knowing that is only really half of the battle. Finding the exact "who" and "where" then becomes the next change. to know it may be a case of the missing sister getting this "treatment" still leaves the "who" and "where" unresolved so i think that will carry.
His own morals are gonna be hard to put to a test here, even if he doesnt believe in using treatments likle that hes still gonna go after his sister no matter what.
Inserting a character could be interesting, i need to see if i can create one that fits. The doctor who created this is supposedly dead, but what if he didn't die? Or, what if someone else actually got hold of the treatment protocols and is using them. In the story, the doctor who created it supposedly died when he was blown up in his car by a family member of a patient who had the original treatment and suffered and died. Is there anything there?
His own morals are gonna be hard to put to a test here, even if he doesnt believe in using treatments likle that hes still gonna go after his sister no matter what.
Inserting a character could be interesting, i need to see if i can create one that fits. The doctor who created this is supposedly dead, but what if he didn't die? Or, what if someone else actually got hold of the treatment protocols and is using them. In the story, the doctor who created it supposedly died when he was blown up in his car by a family member of a patient who had the original treatment and suffered and died. Is there anything there?
Re: POV change, linear storyline.
I think there's a lot of potential there. By building up this dead doctor you could create an entire other antaganist with his own agenda and way of "fixing" the problem. Especially if we find out halfway through that he isn't dead. There could be strange things happening through the beginning of the investigation and then when we get partial resolution (by finding out about the fertility treatments, knowing the "what") you can throw in the twist of "oh, by the way, all of these weird things that have been interfering/helping with the case are really the work of the not-so-dead doctor who's trying to <fill in the blank with his motives here - get his research back, avenge the terrible deaths he's caused (which could be a great way to have a sympathetic antaganist or even turn him into a hero of sorts), do something terrible because he's gone mad from the attack, whatever you want>." There would be tension there between the doctor and whoever's using his research, the doctor and the sister of the missing woman (after all, he's partially responsible for her disappearance so this woman would really hate him), possibly even the doctor and Preacher. Excellent way to keep twists and tension strong as we discover the rest of the missing pieces.Preacher wrote:Inserting a character could be interesting, i need to see if i can create one that fits. The doctor who created this is supposedly dead, but what if he didn't die? Or, what if someone else actually got hold of the treatment protocols and is using them. In the story, the doctor who created it supposedly died when he was blown up in his car by a family member of a patient who had the original treatment and suffered and died. Is there anything there?
I say play around with the idea, see if it feels right and works with the tone, theme, etc. As my Mom would say, "throw it against the wall and see what sticks."
Brenda :)
Inspiration isn't about the muse. Inspiration is working until something clicks. ~Brandon Sanderson
Inspiration isn't about the muse. Inspiration is working until something clicks. ~Brandon Sanderson
Re: POV change, linear storyline.
I had a thought and i think maybe i can merge it with your suggestion and have something like this:
Okay, so supposedly dead doctor isnt dead. But he isnt the real "bad guy" either. Yes, he developed the treatment but during experimenting with it he discovered the problems with it and tried to shelve it. His "partner" wanted the treatment protocols and "set up" his partner as the badg guy while he was the one who didnt care what the treatments would do to others. Now, the supposedly-dead-really alive doctor is laying low and trying to find out exactly who set him up to be kiled whil trying to set things straight. So now i have everybody involved. The earlier strange happenings, maybe my main character is constantly being followed, are really by the not really dead guy and the attempts to stop the main character are orchestrated by the real bad guy.
How does that sound? Does it have possibilities?
Okay, so supposedly dead doctor isnt dead. But he isnt the real "bad guy" either. Yes, he developed the treatment but during experimenting with it he discovered the problems with it and tried to shelve it. His "partner" wanted the treatment protocols and "set up" his partner as the badg guy while he was the one who didnt care what the treatments would do to others. Now, the supposedly-dead-really alive doctor is laying low and trying to find out exactly who set him up to be kiled whil trying to set things straight. So now i have everybody involved. The earlier strange happenings, maybe my main character is constantly being followed, are really by the not really dead guy and the attempts to stop the main character are orchestrated by the real bad guy.
How does that sound? Does it have possibilities?
Re: POV change, linear storyline.
I love it! I think that sounds fabulous and is bursting with potential.Preacher wrote:I had a thought and i think maybe i can merge it with your suggestion and have something like this:
Okay, so supposedly dead doctor isnt dead. But he isnt the real "bad guy" either. Yes, he developed the treatment but during experimenting with it he discovered the problems with it and tried to shelve it. His "partner" wanted the treatment protocols and "set up" his partner as the badg guy while he was the one who didnt care what the treatments would do to others. Now, the supposedly-dead-really alive doctor is laying low and trying to find out exactly who set him up to be kiled whil trying to set things straight. So now i have everybody involved. The earlier strange happenings, maybe my main character is constantly being followed, are really by the not really dead guy and the attempts to stop the main character are orchestrated by the real bad guy.
How does that sound? Does it have possibilities?
Brenda :)
Inspiration isn't about the muse. Inspiration is working until something clicks. ~Brandon Sanderson
Inspiration isn't about the muse. Inspiration is working until something clicks. ~Brandon Sanderson
Re: POV change, linear storyline.
Thanks for all the help. And it is easy to do because all i need to do is insert the proverbial "guy in black coat and hat" who seems to always be around, just on the fringe, watching and following but seemingly not acting. Maybe he interferes directly once or twice to help the main character when he is in a pinch, something like that. Ofmcourse, initially the thought will be the mysterious man is the bad guy when he really isn't. Sounds like it will be fun to incorporate into this story. Lends itself to all kinds of things i can do with it.
And once again, a big thanks for the help and suggestions.
And once again, a big thanks for the help and suggestions.
Re: POV change, linear storyline.
Your plan sounds awesome. Adding the proverbial man in black will definitely add a lot of questions and suspense, and the reveal that he's actually a good guy will be such a fun twist to play with.
And don't mention it, Preacher. That's what the Bransforums are all about. Writing is a lonely enough pursuit as it is - reaching out and helping other nerdy little writers is almost as great of a reward as typing "The End" some days.
And don't mention it, Preacher. That's what the Bransforums are all about. Writing is a lonely enough pursuit as it is - reaching out and helping other nerdy little writers is almost as great of a reward as typing "The End" some days.
Brenda :)
Inspiration isn't about the muse. Inspiration is working until something clicks. ~Brandon Sanderson
Inspiration isn't about the muse. Inspiration is working until something clicks. ~Brandon Sanderson
Re: POV change, linear storyline.
Brenda, you are awesome. I just wetn back and started re-reading chapter one to see if there was a point to slip it in and found a perfect spot. I line talked about a guy picking up Max's cane and handing it to him. I just made it say a guy wearing a black leather duster and gray felt fedora picked up the cane. That puts the not dead doctor standing five feet from my main character with no recognition at all.
Even the beginning first lines of the WIP leave things open.
it says:
"i was being followed. Again."
Well, what he didnt realize was there were 2 people following him and he only felt 1. Excellent stuff.
Even the beginning first lines of the WIP leave things open.
it says:
"i was being followed. Again."
Well, what he didnt realize was there were 2 people following him and he only felt 1. Excellent stuff.
Re: POV change, linear storyline.
Aw, shucks.Preacher wrote:Brenda, you are awesome. I just wetn back and started re-reading chapter one to see if there was a point to slip it in and found a perfect spot. I line talked about a guy picking up Max's cane and handing it to him. I just made it say a guy wearing a black leather duster and gray felt fedora picked up the cane. That puts the not dead doctor standing five feet from my main character with no recognition at all.
Even the beginning first lines of the WIP leave things open.
it says:
"i was being followed. Again."
Well, what he didnt realize was there were 2 people following him and he only felt 1. Excellent stuff.
And this right here is why I love writing! Things just fall into place like they were meant to be. It's like our subconscious knows we need to put something else in, and when we go back we find that we already set it all up. It gives me goosebumps. And reading about the not-dead doctor being five feet from the protaganist - goosebumps!!
Brenda :)
Inspiration isn't about the muse. Inspiration is working until something clicks. ~Brandon Sanderson
Inspiration isn't about the muse. Inspiration is working until something clicks. ~Brandon Sanderson
Re: POV change, linear storyline.
dios4vida has already provided excellent insightful advice on storyline facets of the questions. I'll go into pov change and linearness of storyline. Changing from third to first grammatical person isn't so much of a point of view change as it is a narrator's voice change. The focal character is still the focal character; however, the focal character's voice is now reporting all the dramatic action, where third person has at least a second voice mediating the action report. If a third person covert narrator is analogous to a behind the scenes cinematographer, the viewpoint then is where the camera(s) see from. First person narrator is the camera, only one.
That then illustrates some of the challenges of first person narrator. The narrator in most situations cannot see him or herself without looking at a reflection. Issues there, narcissism doesn't sit well with readers in most circumstances, and there's no personality to passionately clash with, per se. Also, because all the action must be experienced by the narrator, the narrator must be present for all the action or logically, credibly, timely become aware of events that take place away from the narrator's immediate experience. Also, due to a first person narrator's need to be central, artless author surrogacy is a major challenge and risk first person can lead a writer into. The risks of too heavily presented self-idealization and self-efficacy and self-centeredness are more pronounced in first person. Foremost among them the need for the narrator to be central to all the action can lead to weak stage directions. For instance, I saw the doctor glaring at me from behind the hedge. "I saw" recites a static and flat action, a tell. Those kinds of weak reports can drag down or stall plot movement.
First person's strengths include artful author surrogacy; which has great potential appeal to middle grade, young adult, and early adult audiences; artful subjective and biased, open to intepretation reporting, and potentially close narrative distance because the narrator is in the immediate setting times, places, and situations of most if not all the actions. Yes, a first person narrator potentially can report internal discourse more deeply than a third person narrator, though, both are equally capable of full access to a central character's thoughts. First person, however, reports only the narrator's thoughts for the most part objectively and the narrator's subjective impressions of others' thoughts. Third person potentially has full objective access to all thoughts. Much of the real difference between first and third person falls on the objective-subjective axis. Third person potentially more objective, first person typically more subjective.
Draft writing in third person and then adjusting for first person is a useful learning exercise. At some point, it might be better to go back to third. Or first person might be better. Trying out the voices of each is a great learning tool for determining which voice is best for which narrative. One thing, the attitude of the attitude holder most capable of expressing the strongest commentary about a narrative's theme is the strongest voice. Will a first person narrator be the central attitude holder? Or a third person narrator's attitude be central?
Linear storyline to me means a straightfoward conflict resolution type outcome or a simple plot. The final outcome must remain in doubt until the denouement regardless, though be inevitable. At each major and minor turn a reversal or setback of some sort must accompany progress discoveries, or discoveries cause reversals or setbacks. In the alternative, a complex plot includes an abrupt, profound recognition of the true circumstances, or an abrupt, profound reversal of circumstances, or both, ideally both. Either or both can occur at any major and perhaps minor turn. Realizing the presumably dead doctor isn't, in fact, dead, seems to me a potentially abrupt, profound recognition of true circumstances, and possibly from or causing an abrupt, profound reversal of circumstances. How abrupt and profound an anagnorisis (recognition) or peripteia (reversal) needs to be is subjective and can be tenuous to a point. Subtle and abrupt and profound recognitions and reversals are sublime.
That then illustrates some of the challenges of first person narrator. The narrator in most situations cannot see him or herself without looking at a reflection. Issues there, narcissism doesn't sit well with readers in most circumstances, and there's no personality to passionately clash with, per se. Also, because all the action must be experienced by the narrator, the narrator must be present for all the action or logically, credibly, timely become aware of events that take place away from the narrator's immediate experience. Also, due to a first person narrator's need to be central, artless author surrogacy is a major challenge and risk first person can lead a writer into. The risks of too heavily presented self-idealization and self-efficacy and self-centeredness are more pronounced in first person. Foremost among them the need for the narrator to be central to all the action can lead to weak stage directions. For instance, I saw the doctor glaring at me from behind the hedge. "I saw" recites a static and flat action, a tell. Those kinds of weak reports can drag down or stall plot movement.
First person's strengths include artful author surrogacy; which has great potential appeal to middle grade, young adult, and early adult audiences; artful subjective and biased, open to intepretation reporting, and potentially close narrative distance because the narrator is in the immediate setting times, places, and situations of most if not all the actions. Yes, a first person narrator potentially can report internal discourse more deeply than a third person narrator, though, both are equally capable of full access to a central character's thoughts. First person, however, reports only the narrator's thoughts for the most part objectively and the narrator's subjective impressions of others' thoughts. Third person potentially has full objective access to all thoughts. Much of the real difference between first and third person falls on the objective-subjective axis. Third person potentially more objective, first person typically more subjective.
Draft writing in third person and then adjusting for first person is a useful learning exercise. At some point, it might be better to go back to third. Or first person might be better. Trying out the voices of each is a great learning tool for determining which voice is best for which narrative. One thing, the attitude of the attitude holder most capable of expressing the strongest commentary about a narrative's theme is the strongest voice. Will a first person narrator be the central attitude holder? Or a third person narrator's attitude be central?
Linear storyline to me means a straightfoward conflict resolution type outcome or a simple plot. The final outcome must remain in doubt until the denouement regardless, though be inevitable. At each major and minor turn a reversal or setback of some sort must accompany progress discoveries, or discoveries cause reversals or setbacks. In the alternative, a complex plot includes an abrupt, profound recognition of the true circumstances, or an abrupt, profound reversal of circumstances, or both, ideally both. Either or both can occur at any major and perhaps minor turn. Realizing the presumably dead doctor isn't, in fact, dead, seems to me a potentially abrupt, profound recognition of true circumstances, and possibly from or causing an abrupt, profound reversal of circumstances. How abrupt and profound an anagnorisis (recognition) or peripteia (reversal) needs to be is subjective and can be tenuous to a point. Subtle and abrupt and profound recognitions and reversals are sublime.
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Re: POV change, linear storyline.
Poly:
Thank you for the comments and thoughtful explanation as far as POV changes and linear storyline. The reason for the change to first was that it just felt right describing the world and actions through the eyes of my main character. For instance, it felt better having him say that the situation concerning his sister's disappearance has left him with an addiction to candy, coffee and has left him with many sleepless, restless nights. Having him tell you what's happened feels better and it gives me the chance to have him show his world view, how he sees things, and to get to know what's going on in his head as the events happen around him. I understand the limits and i am willing to work with them. It feels good and right, and i am zipping along in first person and want to see what it reads like when i finish. Of course, if it would have ended up working better in third person i can always go back and make another POV change back to where i started.
One thing that happened when i was writing in third person was that i had put in scenes taking place in other places, some with the bad guy, some with other characters, and then i went back and read them and they were nice and all but i didn't really think they were necessary or served to further the plot in any type of meaningful way. They felt more like info dumps and gave stuff away that might have let readers figure out the whole thing before i really wanted them to. This was another reason i went and changed the POV. I removed those chapters and wanted the reader to take the trip along with my main character and see what he sees, and so on, and so on.
With a few new added elements i think i have a solid plotline working and am real anxious to see where it actually ends up.
Thank you for the comments and thoughtful explanation as far as POV changes and linear storyline. The reason for the change to first was that it just felt right describing the world and actions through the eyes of my main character. For instance, it felt better having him say that the situation concerning his sister's disappearance has left him with an addiction to candy, coffee and has left him with many sleepless, restless nights. Having him tell you what's happened feels better and it gives me the chance to have him show his world view, how he sees things, and to get to know what's going on in his head as the events happen around him. I understand the limits and i am willing to work with them. It feels good and right, and i am zipping along in first person and want to see what it reads like when i finish. Of course, if it would have ended up working better in third person i can always go back and make another POV change back to where i started.
One thing that happened when i was writing in third person was that i had put in scenes taking place in other places, some with the bad guy, some with other characters, and then i went back and read them and they were nice and all but i didn't really think they were necessary or served to further the plot in any type of meaningful way. They felt more like info dumps and gave stuff away that might have let readers figure out the whole thing before i really wanted them to. This was another reason i went and changed the POV. I removed those chapters and wanted the reader to take the trip along with my main character and see what he sees, and so on, and so on.
With a few new added elements i think i have a solid plotline working and am real anxious to see where it actually ends up.
Re: POV change, linear storyline.
You certainly have a handle on first person's best strengths, closer potential narrative distance through closer psychic access. Contrasted with third person's equal but more challenging potentials in that regard. Each time a viewpoint character transition in third person takes place, narrative distance opens and might not close as close as before. One of the more challenging yet workable benefits of first person is the potentials for illustrating the clashing attitudes of a central character, say a protagonist, with a nemesis or villain until they come into direct confrontation. Easier to do that in third person before the central clashing characters come into contact.
And first person's pitfalls can be turned to advantages. Only one persona reporting leaves others' actions mysterious and gives readers opportunity to engage their curiosity and creative vision in figuring out what's going on. First person has equal potential to illustrate clashing attitudes, more so from internal clashes, but more challenging to report what the narrator doesn't nor can know or at least know the meaning of. He can experience circumstances and not know what they mean, but readers can interpret them, rightly or wrongly, and then be deeper engaged through dramatic irony, knowing more than the narrator and wanting to see if they're wrong or right.
And first person's pitfalls can be turned to advantages. Only one persona reporting leaves others' actions mysterious and gives readers opportunity to engage their curiosity and creative vision in figuring out what's going on. First person has equal potential to illustrate clashing attitudes, more so from internal clashes, but more challenging to report what the narrator doesn't nor can know or at least know the meaning of. He can experience circumstances and not know what they mean, but readers can interpret them, rightly or wrongly, and then be deeper engaged through dramatic irony, knowing more than the narrator and wanting to see if they're wrong or right.
Last edited by polymath on July 14th, 2011, 12:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: POV change, linear storyline.
Let's hope that having a handle on the best aspects of it makes the story fun to read.
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