Thieves and ignorance.

[Margo]

If you want to stop it, you're going to get stopped, Margo. So why even bother?

Couldn't someone have said that to Gandhi? Couldn't someone have said that to MLK? Would Britain still rule India? Would there still be separate drinking fountains for black people? Would women have the right to vote? Would there be a USA or just a bunch of colonies? Everyone who starts a change (and I'm not the one who has started this...there are plenty of other people who don't steal and don't sacrifice others) has been told it won't work. I'm glad they didn't listen.

Claudie's post already pointed out all the things that are now socially unacceptible in the modern world that were accepted just a couple of decades ago. Illegal downloading can be one of those things. Stealing and sacrificing others for nothing more than enjoyment can be among those things. But not if you just lay down and give up.

Why bother? If you ever get bored and would like something to read up on, check out the old Norse concept of heroic resignation. If that's not to your liking, try reading the Simile of the Cave in Plato's Republic. It's a fairly short section of the book, if philosophers aren't your thing.

Certain defeat is not a reason to surrender (if for no other reason than certain defeat is frequently a matter of propaganda so people won't try).

[Margo]

Most of the people whose are making torrents from novels are kids, most of them are not even reached their 16 years of age.

I thought they were all evil companies commiting fraud.

Actually you should be glad that a 10 years old is still reading and not any other novel, but your work.

Will you just be happy they were reading your book when yours is the one they're stealing, so often that the publishing company drops your next book?

In my community, a group of young men, aged 22-10 beat an old man unconscious on the sidewalk for $7 in his pocket. When the 16 year old, the 12 year old, and the 10 year old saw him get up a few minutes later they went back out and they beat him to death. But the two youngest don't know the difference between right and wrong, do they? They shouldn't be punished, I guess.

[Guardian]

At that point I wouldn't give a hoot in hell for the money. It's the principle. "This, young one, is what happens when you cross the line." The more people, whoever they are, are held accountable the more people will think twice about trying the same thing. That's why we have laws and penalties for breaking them.

Now this is when people used to loose their sense of reality. You may do this, but it will backfire, that's a guarantee. You may keep one 10 years old from the net to show your novel to his / her friends, the novel, the characters which was his / her treasure. But with the same move you're going to alienate around few thousand little ones with the very same act, whose are going to say; this novel is the bad man's novel. I don't want it, mommy. Let's buy the other one.

You know, if a 10 years old would treasure my WIP and love it, even just half as I do, but he / she would upload it because wanted to share with a friend, who the hell cares? I would rather write him / her a very short novel about the true difference between good and bad. Why? Because that's much more memorable to the kid. Although as a writer it's my job to give dreams, instead of shattering them.

I thought they were all evil companies commiting fraud.

That was just an example, which is also existing, usually in the gaming and sometimes in the movie industry.

[Margo]

At that point I wouldn't give a hoot in hell for the money. It's the principle. "This, young one, is what happens when you cross the line." The more people, whoever they are, are held accountable the more people will think twice about trying the same thing. That's why we have laws and penalties for breaking them.

You probably won't have much to do with it. The download will come to your attention - is it google alerts? I forget - and you will forward the information to a person at your publishing company whose job it is to stop the downloads. That person will send a cease and desist letter that makes the host pull down the site. Most companies don't want to go after the downloaders because of the publicity backlash than makes the downloader the victim.

Hopefully, you sell enough legitimate copies that you come at least close to earning out your advance. If not, your next book will be dropped. You don't get another shot. The readers (even the ones who actually bought the book honestly) won't get to read another of your books. Unhappiness all around. Done deal.

Long live the proletariat. Viva la revolucion.

[Guardian]

Actually you should be glad that a 10 years old is still reading and not any other novel, but your work.

Will you just be happy they were reading your book when yours is the one they're stealing, so often that the publishing company drops your next book?

If any of my work is depending on few downloads, especially on a download or upload of a 10 years old, that means I failed as a writer and it's better if my next book will be droped. Better, in that case I'm going to volunteer to make another job. Maybe I'm going to be a gardener. That's so peaceful. :) But seriously, if a novel's success is depending on few hundred, in worst case scenario, few thousand additional downloads, parallel with your legit sales, in that case that novel sucks as it is.

[Margo]

If any of my work is depending on few downloads...

You do realize, don't you, that we're easily talking 20,000 downloads? You're darned right your career hangs on 20,000 downloads.

But if you're good with that...you're good with that. From your lips...

[sierramcconnell]

Watcher55, the problem is, then you end up looking the bad guy, too. Wow, you prosecuted a kid who probably didn't know any better anyway, and yelled at him that, "YOU WILL MAKE HIM PAY, RAWR!"

Now people aren't going to buy your book because, "You remember, he's that author who prosecuted that kid." "Oh, right. I bet his book as horrible as he is."

It's a double-edged sword. So you have to be a little less cruel about it.

[Guardian]

If any of my work is depending on few downloads...

You do realize, don't you, that we're easily talking 20,000 downloads? You're darned right your career hangs on 20,000 downloads.

But if you're good with that...you're good with that. From your lips...

Actually I would be good with that. And do you know why? Because I know that at least the 60-75% of these people are going to buy the next one and around 50% bought that one what they read freely. Stories about downloads are always telling, how many downloaded an exact product. But they never mention how many bought legally after it. Somehow these little details are always missing and that number is used to be around 35-60%, depending on the quality.

And as I said, if my career hangs on 20,000 hypothetical downloads, parallel with my legit sales, I did something really wrong or the publisher failed to advertise my product correctly.

[Watcher55]

You probably won't have much to do with it. The download will come to your attention - is it google alerts? I forget - and you will forward the information to a person at your publishing company whose job it is to stop the downloads. That person will send a cease and desist letter that makes the host pull down the site. Most companies don't want to go after the downloaders because of the publicity backlash than makes the downloader the victim.

Long live the proletariat. Viva la revolucion.

Penny-wise Pound-foolish on the part of the publishing houses. We got into this mess by bowing to the court of public opinion. It's time to start calling wrong things wrong and take the heat. There has to be a way to make the risk greater than the reward.

[Sommer Leigh]

If any of my work is depending on few downloads...

You do realize, don't you, that we're easily talking 20,000 downloads? You're darned right your career hangs on 20,000 downloads.

But if you're good with that...you're good with that. From your lips...

Actually I would be good with that. And do you know why? Because I know that at least the 60-75% of these people are going to buy the next one and around 50% bought that one what they read freely. Stories about downloads are always telling, how many downloaded an exact product. But they never mention how many bought legally after it. Somehow these little details are always missing and that number is used to be around 35-60%, depending on the quality.

And as I said, if my career hangs on 20,000 hypothetical downloads, parallel with my legit sales, I did something really wrong or the publisher failed to advertise my product correctly.

If someone is ok with downloading one book illegally, I doubt very many people, let alone 60-75%, will pay for the next one.

Also, it doesn't matter how many people bought it legally after they downloaded it illegally. They still downloaded it illegally. The illegal act isn't undone by the legal one.

[sierramcconnell]

Actually I would be good with that. And do you know why? Because I know that at least the 60-75% of these people are going to buy the next one and around 50% bought that one what they read freely. Stories about downloads are always telling, how many downloaded an exact product. But they never mention how many bought legally after it. Somehow these little details are always missing and that number is used to be around 35-60%, depending on the quality.

And as I said, if my career hangs on 20,000 hypothetical downloads, parallel with my legit sales, I did something really wrong or the publisher failed to advertise my product correctly.

THAT.

I get downloads of music from friends. I then LOVE the artist in some cases (most cases) and then go and buy more than one of their CDs off of AmazonMP3 because I'm a music whore.

Read: Stolen music just made them MORE money than me getting lost in a store and never hearing it or seeing their stupid looking picture on the front. And believe me, a lot of covers just do NOT do justice these days.

[Watcher55]

Watcher55, the problem is, then you end up looking the bad guy, too. Wow, you prosecuted a kid who probably didn't know any better anyway, and yelled at him that, "YOU WILL MAKE HIM PAY, RAWR!"

Now people aren't going to buy your book because, "You remember, he's that author who prosecuted that kid." "Oh, right. I bet his book as horrible as he is."

It's a double-edged sword. So you have to be a little less cruel about it.

Ten year olds should and do know the difference between right and wrong; and if they don't then now is the time to teach them. I'm not talking about ruining a kid's life (there are laws that protect against that), I'm talking about the most effective means of prevention. The catch is, I can't be the only one doing it.

More kids are ruined because we're so afraid of hurting their feelings when they do wrong. They have to know there are consequences. I was talking to my class about rules and one of my "underachievers" said: "You know, Mr. 55, a rule ain't a rule if no one enforces it."

And you know what? We're not talking about 10 year olds here. We're talking about world wise people who think they have the right to ignore society's rules just because they can.

[sierramcconnell]

And you know what? We're not talking about 10 year olds here. We're talking about world wise people who think they have the right to ignore society's rules just because they can.

Good luck with that. It gets you laid off, fired, and kicked half way across the states. They'll tell you /you're/ the one who's wrong. That you have a problem that needs 'fixing'.

[Guardian]

If someone is ok with downloading one book illegally, I doubt very many people, let alone 60-75%, will pay for the next one. Also, it doesn't matter how many people bought it legally after they downloaded it illegally. They still downloaded it illegally. The illegal act isn't undone by the legal one.

I've worked in marketing for few years and I rarely mistaken with numbers. Of course, I would lie if I would say, I'm okay with it. But as I can't, and personally I don't want to do anything against it, so it's fine by me. And I won't make a crusade against a ten years old, if he / she would download my novel. I rather spend the power of revenge for writing.

Oh, and just a question to all who is telling that downloading is stealing. How many of you're listening music via YouTube or the net? Seriously.

I'm asking this, because I remember for few links on this forum what you guys linked. But it seems that's different, because you did it with a product what for you have no connection at all. You all do the very same, yet you would prosecute everyone, even a 10 years old, who would download your novel. What's the difference? Nothing. Just the perspective. That's the essence.

[Margo]

Actually I would be good with that. And do you know why? Because I know that at least the 60-75% of these people are going to buy the next one and around 50% bought that one what they read freely.

But there isn't going to be a next one. That's the point.