Thieves and ignorance.

[Margo]

Where do you think they got their movies?

Movies.com, internet streaming, buying from the guy two aisles over who sells Twilight for $8 a pop pre-released bootleg...

Oops.

I hear a lot of things. I don't do them, but it's not like I don't hear them.

I think we just switched topics. I was saying that people should stop buying things if they don't like them and feel they've been cheated. The companies will then either change their product to suit their buyers or go out of business. Your example of how the DVD trailers changed was a perfect example of that in action.

But you're talking about pirated copies? You're upset that you have to wait through trailers on pirated DVDs? I... think I'm misunderstanding you.

[sierramcconnell]

What Guardian was saying was the reason why people were buying pirated DVDs was because the trailers were unskippable. I said I hated those things. Then you said, "I watched two last night and did just fine."

I said they weren't always that way, but the fact that people stopped buying them made them change.

You said it was because, yeah, they stopped buying them.

Well, while they stopped buying them, they got them from other sources, is what i'm saying.

Did that catch you up?

[Margo]

Well, while they stopped buying them, they got them from other sources, is what i'm saying.

Did that catch you up?

Yeah, I think so, you're still trying to justify stealing something for entertainment? Because not buying the product should have been enough. Making the company see they have to satisfy the customer's desire should have been enough. The bootleg copies cross over into stealing for convenience and pleasure again.

[sierramcconnell]

Well, while they stopped buying them, they got them from other sources, is what i'm saying.

Did that catch you up?

Yeah, I think so, you're still trying to justify stealing something for entertainment? Because not buying the product should have been enough. Making the company see they have to satisfy the customer's desire should have been enough. The bootleg copies cross over into stealing for convenience and pleasure again.

I don't steal, and I'm not justifying it, I'm explaining it. That people are what they are, and at their core they're going to go to where they can get something that doesn't interfere with what they want. And the companies were being greedy in themselves, by forcing on more and more and more advertising, thinking it would get people to buy buy buy. And it backfired. They stopped buying the original product in the first place.

Point being? People are greedy and selfish. End of story.

[Margo]

Point being? People are greedy and selfish. End of story.

No, many people are not greedy and selfish. The ones who are use that sentiment to continue being greedy and selfish.

When I worked in a terrible place where people were horrid - I mean HORRID - to one another, they excused their behavior by saying that every workplace was like that. I changed to a workplace that WASN'T like that. The only reason the first place was like that is the people using excuses to justify being jerks.

If you hold people to a higher standard or shut them out of your life, they either rise to a higher standard or make someone else miserable. It's amazing the number who actually will rise to a higher standard if people stop excusing their behavior as just the way people are. It's called enabling.

[Guardian]

Guardian, does your country have libraries? You have access to the internet, so there is zero reason you can't read a sample to find out if you want to buy a novel, read a review or a walkthrough to see if you want to buy a game, rent a movie to see if you'd like to buy it.

Actually my country has pretty famous libraries, but here many books are for free in it's digital shape. So my country is not the best example as we have quite different regulations and laws to protect the citizens from the companies (Yes, my country doesn't really like megacorps in general.). i.e. here, you can make back up copies of a DVD if you have a legal copy of it. Of course, you're prohibited to sell it or spread it for money, but you're not prohibited to make thousand copies if you want. In the past we even had a rule that people can download anything and can keep anything for 24 hours on their computer (This was good to try products, before we would buy blindly. In my native country many are downloading products, but they're also buying them, IF the product deserves it. Why they're doing this? Because here people always want to know what they're going to buy. My people are not really buy anything blindly, but if something deserves the buy, that one used to be bought immediately by the customer.). But in general, Europe has quite different rules then the U.S. There are countries where piracy is not considered as stealing, but as a protection against companies. It's a good method to protect the customers from company fraud and cheating, when the advertisement of a product is not matching with the actual, true product.

If you steal it anyway it is because YOU WANT TO. It comes down to this. Is stealing for pleasure and convenience EVER justified? My response is no, not ever, ever, under any circumstances, no matter who uploaded the copies. NO. I suspect your response is quite different.

Actually it does matter who uploaded the copies. Check the law. Doesn't knowing the law is never relieved anyone if committed a crime. Not even companies. And if the company is uploading the product to a torrent to blame the pirates in front of the investors when the sales are poor... that company can be sued because they commited a fraud.

You need food and water and shelter to live. not novels and video games and movies. No one is forcing anyone to take drastic measures. That level of spoiled entitlement is taking the piss.

Actually tell this to those families whose are living from 300USD per month and they want to do something else, then working all over their life, want to spend one day along with their family on a rainy afternoon. But if they would want to buy a product for 25-50USD (Which is almost or more then 10% of their monthly salary), that's already risky, because there is a 75% chance the product is something else in the reality, than as it is advertised. In my country and in other countries in Europe this is the reason for these strange laws. What you're calling as stealing, it's called as customer protection.

[sierramcconnell]

Point being? People are greedy and selfish. End of story.

No, many people are not greedy and selfish. The ones who are use that sentiment to continue being greedy and selfish.

When I worked in a terrible place where people were horrid - I mean HORRID - to one another, they excused their behavior by saying that every workplace was like that. I changed to a workplace that WASN'T like that. The only reason the first place was like that is the people using excuses to justify being jerks.

If you hold people to a higher standard or shut them out of your life, they either rise to a higher standard or make someone else miserable. It's amazing the number who actually will rise to a higher standard if people stop excusing their behavior as just the way people are. It's called enabling.

Did you know that psychologically the most selfish creature in existance is the human child\infant? It only thinks about itself. It is through teaching it not to that it learns about others and empathy and so on and so forth. They teach that in psychology. Because it's first thought is survival. It wants.

People have not changed much from that. The core of their being is the ME. You can't say otherwise. When you go into a job interview, most people think, "I hope *I* get the job." When you have an accident, most people think, "I hope *I* make it!"

Your first thought isn't for everyone else. You think of you and you alone. Humankind is the most selfish, greedy thing alive.

Even those who claim to be kind and thoughtful. They have their own motives.

And those who try to stop the world from being that way? Get fired and told their 'different' and need to change and be on pills.

However, that's a different story not involving theft or ignorance...

[Margo]

Actually tell this to those families whose are living from 300USD per month and they want to do something else, then working all over their life, want to spend one day along with their family on a rainy afternoon.

Guardian, that is a terrible excuse. You have noooo idea how poor my own family was. My father's family raised 8 children in a tent roaming from farm to farm to pick crops. My grandparents had NO education. They didn't steal things for any reason, certainly NOT entertainment. They did this interesting thing called telling stories. It's free. It's the way they taught their children that things used to be even tougher and people still rose to the occasion. It's the way they passed down family history and funny events. And it was free. Sometimes they took their meal and walked to a lake or a dam nearby to eat by the water. And it was free. Sometimes, when they finally had a house to live in, they gardened together, and it was free.

Please explain to me why that family couldn't get a free book from the free library and spend their afternoon reading to the kids? Teaching them, by the way, that you can make do if you have to. You don't have to be spoiled and entitled, and luxuries are not the point.

[Margo]

Did you know that psychologically the most selfish creature in existance is the human child\infant? It only thinks about itself. It is through teaching it not to that it learns about others and empathy and so on and so forth. They teach that in psychology. Because it's first thought is survival. It wants.

People have not changed much from that.

If they've grown up they have.

The core of their being is the ME. You can't say otherwise. When you go into a job interview, most people think, "I hope *I* get the job." When you have an accident, most people think, "I hope *I* make it!"

And when it is not a 'me or them scenario'? Do you still sacrifice the other person when your survival is NOT at stake? Cuz I don't, and I'm human. I would also mention that I was in a major accident 10 years ago with my mother. She refused medical treatment until the paramedics checked me. I could hear her but could not speak to argue. She would gladly have given her life for mine. And I would have given my life for her. My mother and father are largely the reason I don't agree that everyone is greedy and selfish, and when they left this earth they left behind many people who were better off for having known them, and these people knew that and any God anyone can come up with also knows that.

Even those who claim to be kind and thoughtful. They have their own motives.

It's called serving the Good.

And those who try to stop the world from being that way? Get fired and told their 'different' and need to change and be on pills.

Mother Teresa? Gandhi? MLK? Historical larger-than-life figures, I know. Not 'real' people. I stop the world from being that way by not allowing that into my life. If people behave that way, they are no longer my friends or family. And I haven't been fired or put on pills. I think you have met the wrong people, Sierra, and I hope you meet other people, some people different from the only thing you think exists.

[Guardian]

Guardian, that is a terrible excuse. You have noooo idea how poor my own family was. My father's family raised 8 children in a tent roaming from farm to farm to pick crops.

It's not a terrible excuse. Welcome in the 21st century, where the world is a bit different (Just between you and me, I hate this century.). Do you know what's the problem, at least as I see our conversation? You're bravely protecting rich companies whose are stealing from people, cheating people with half ready products, but when the poor one is doing something against it, you're raising your voice against them. So you're protecting thieves from thieves. Nice.

You know the general problem is the society in general. But when there is a poor family, mom and dad who loves their children and their children asks; how is it possible that they can do this and that? But the parents can't explain this to don't hurt their children. And you know what? BECAUSE OF LOVE, the poor mom and dad, rather violate the law FOR THEIR children, to make them happy. If you can't understand this, you truly forgot where your family and your parents are truly from. Why I say this? When a family is poor, the parents are usually doing everything in the background to make their children happy, but they're never going to tell you that, even if they violate the law here and there to make their children happy. Why they're not telling it? Because parents never want children to repeat the same mistakes. But it's human nature and no one can change it.

You don't have to be spoiled and entitled, and luxuries are not the point.

Everyone deserves the luxury at least once in his / her life. It's not being spoiled or entitled, but no one is born to be a slave on this planet.

[Margo]

You're bravely protecting rich companies whose are stealing from people, cheating people with half ready products, but when the poor one is doing something against it, you're raising your voice against them. So you're protecting thieves from thieves. Nice.

You don't get it, Guardian. I don't defend any kind of thieves. I just don't resist perceived wrongs with more wrongs.

The writers you are bravely sacrificing? What about them? They don't own the company.

Everyone deserves the luxury at least once in his / her life. It's not being spoiled or entitled, but no one is born to be a slave on this planet.

And again, why can't that luxury be had for free from a library or for a dollar from a rental machine?

[Guardian]

You don't get it, Guardian. I don't defend any kind of thieves. I just don't resist perceived wrongs with more wrongs.

Actually what I read from you here; companies can't be bad, they can't be evil, they're always right. Now, I've worked with few and I can tell you, they're far away from any good. And in digital piracy, those crying "thieves" the loudest, whose are stealing the most.

As I said, I'm also not supporting piracy, but as I also said I can understand them as there is a cause and effects in digital piracy, just as in everything else. You may say that people whose are downloading are bad, but also ask the following: what is made them that bad? Why they're doing this? Stealing from someone is bad, yes. But as I've seen and as I experienced, these people are rather protecting themselves to being ripped off by companies. This is what I'm saying since the beginning.

The writers you are bravely sacrificing? What about them? They don't own the company.

I'm not sacrificing anyone. Also, you forget one element... the publisher. That's a company already. People may love a writer, but if they hate a company, they're not going to buy the novel, rather download it. That's the sad fact.

And again, why can't that luxury be had for free from a library or for a dollar from a rental machine?

Well... sometimes even a dollar is too much for a family. Throughout the world families are suffering and sometimes a dollar means a lot. Of course this is not covered in the CNN and other news sites, but unfortunately it's existing.

[Margo]

Stealing from someone is bad, yes.

Right. Stop there. Done. But you're not done, so that's not really what you think...

But as I've seen and as I experienced, these people are rather protecting themselves to being ripped off by companies. This is what I'm saying since the beginning.

They are not protecting themselves. There is nothing forcing them to use the product. It's not necessary! A company can't rip you off if you won't do business with them.

And AGAIN, what is keeping the 'victims' from using free resources at libraries? What is keeping them from researching the product on the internet they are using for the illegal download? Nothing.

Also, you forget one element... the publisher. That's a company already. People may love a writer, but if they hate a company, they're not going to buy the novel, rather download it. That's the sad fact.

If they just wanted to hurt the company, they would just not buy or download the book. They ALSO want something for nothing. And if a dollar is too much for a family, how are they paying for the internet access to download the products? What computer are they playing the game on? What e-reader are they using for reading the novel? What DVD player costs less than a dollar, or is that stolen too?

[Sommer Leigh]

I think we've gotten slightly off topic in trying to talk about all the different sorts of piracy. It might be easier if we just stick to talking about book piracy for now.

You're bravely protecting rich companies whose are stealing from people, cheating people with half ready products, but when the poor one is doing something against it, you're raising your voice against them. So you're protecting thieves from thieves. Nice.

If a person goes into a store, picks out a book, and buys it, the company isn't stealing from them. They get a book. It's not a half book. It is a full book. You may like it. You may not. But you don't get to choose to pay based on your opinion of it. If you're not sure, if you don't have enough money to buy books, you go to the library. The library legally bought their copies and they track how often a book gets checked out. This is a good system. If you live in a country where the book hasn't been released, you go online. There are lots and lots of great book sellers who sell to countries and while you will have to pay more for shipping, you get the book and you get it the legal way. I am not at home to check my bookmarked links but I think the distributor is booktopia or something similar to that that I used to purchased some YA books from an Australian writer whose books were published in the 90s and made available in the US only very briefly back then. I had to pay more for it but I got what I wanted and didn't do it illegally.

I think there is a misconception that people are "sticking it to the man" by downloading illegally. The publishing company isn't the one being hurt by it though, it's the author. The company might lose out on some sales, but the author is the one who won't be able to earn out her advance and get picked up to write another book.

[Guardian]

A company can't rip you off if you won't do business with them.

Really? Have you ever worked as a company? Or have you ever did marketing? What marketing is all about? To grab the audience with anything to sell the product. Along with advertisement the lies are appearing, because you want to present that your product is actually better then the other one. The customers are used to be naive and they used to fall into this trap. Then the domino effect comes. Most of the companies are aimed to rip off their customers. What do you think? How is it possible that a CD Drive what was made in 1997 is still working, yet the one that I've bought last year is already over? Because companies are aimed to sell more and more. If it's lack of quality, who cares? The stupid ones are going to buy the newer model next time if we advertise it properly. But this is the only thing what they can't do with digital content. Sell the same crap over and over again, as after a time people will have enough and they rather downloading the new version instead of buy it. Why? Because they're already paid once for the product, which was half ready, yet in the next year the company is selling the same with a different label, which is already holding the patch of a program. So, you should buy the same product twice instead of once. This is how large companies are working in general (Games and movies.).

Right. Stop there. Done. But you're not done, so that's not really what you think...

No. Actually this is how the world works nowadays. This is the reason why I'm not stopped. Nowadays people can choose between bad and worse. So they rather choose the bad (Downloading) instead of worse (Being ripped off).