Thieves and ignorance.

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Claudie
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Re: Thieves and ignorance.

Post by Claudie » January 21st, 2011, 2:54 pm

steve wrote:How do you propose to change the behavior of people who download recent books?

I'd say any effort to change behavior is a futile one.
The same way it was futile to try and convince people to fasten their seatbelts and stop drinking while driving? Or to recycle their paper? Or to stop smoking? It can be done. Not for everyone, but there have been major changes in the population's behaviour through time. The problem is that it also takes money, and I'm not sure we'll see that much used for this purpose.

Meanwhile what we can do is talk about it openly and remind people around us of how it can impact writers. Every little bit helps, I say. I can't convince the whole world, but I can reach a few.
sommer wrote:That buying a cheeseburger at McDonalds has a higher monetary value than the book I spent two years writing.
You made me cringe and hiss, which earned me a couple of weird looks from people around. Ouch. I'm not looking forward to dealing with such things either.
Margo wrote:Yeah, pretty much. But empathy, like respect, is in short supply these days.
We do have each others, at least. It's amazing how fast writers will rise to defend one another, especially over the internet.
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Re: Thieves and ignorance.

Post by Margo » January 21st, 2011, 2:59 pm

Claudie wrote:We do have each others, at least. It's amazing how fast writers will rise to defend one another, especially over the internet.
YES! I can think of a few stands writers have taken that made me really proud and restored a little of my faith in people.
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Sommer Leigh
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Re: Thieves and ignorance.

Post by Sommer Leigh » January 21st, 2011, 3:36 pm

Margo wrote:
Claudie wrote:We do have each others, at least. It's amazing how fast writers will rise to defend one another, especially over the internet.
YES! I can think of a few stands writers have taken that made me really proud and restored a little of my faith in people.
It is one of the many reasons I love writing in YA. YA authors are incredibly protective of each other and rise quickly to champion a cause. What I love even more is that they can defend a cause or upbraid a bad guy with a great deal of grace, intelligence, and wit. Very, very rarely does such discussions deteriorate into yelling, name calling, and cruelty.

It is interesting how detached the internet has made people, to the point where they are ok with stealing books and can present well thought out reasons why it is acceptable, but then when someone wrongs that which they hold closests to their hearts few things are as powerful as the rise of a digital mob.
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sierramcconnell
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Re: Thieves and ignorance.

Post by sierramcconnell » February 1st, 2011, 6:27 pm

Wait, wait...wait... [waves hand]

So...so when I lend a copy of a book to someone...and let them read it...

IT'S LETTING THEM STEAL IT BECAUSE THEY READ IT WITHOUT PAYING THE AUTHOR FOR THE PRIVLEDGE?!

Because, you know, a lot of people don't pay for books. They don't feel the need to re-read things. So they borrow. They sit and read in storu. And so on and so forth.

Do you know how much money those authors are losing?!

How dare I?! I should...OH MY GOD.

I should...I should go sell myself on eBay. I feel so horrible now.

[crawls into a box]

/insanity

But honestly. It's a downloaded book. It's no different from borrowing or sitting at a library or store and reading. I understand that it's seen as stealing, but she would have gotten it another way. Just like music.

Borrow from a friend, copy, and repeat.

Or do what my boss at work does with his Netflix movies...

Unfortunately, it's an illegal world we're living in. And there's nothing much we can do about it. But there's free media everywhere. Had she not downloaded it, she would have just rented it somewhere or borrowed it. And your author is still out her $23.95 a hardbound copy.

She should just be happy someone's reading her book.

Sorry to be on the opposite side. Please don't throw pigdeons at me.
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Guardian
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Re: Thieves and ignorance.

Post by Guardian » February 2nd, 2011, 7:55 am

Actually this free downloading has two sides and to understand why they're doing this, you must understand the people. While according to the law, it's thieving, not the downloaders are started thieving, but the product makers with their easy money schemes.

In the 21st century people are feel cheated, because in most of the cases the advertisements (Movies, Games, etc, etc...) are lying to them (Brand new, shiny graphic, until this time never told story, etc, etc...). Most of the people who is downloading something were customers, sometimes great customer in the past. But when they've spent 49.99USD for a Video game, which is buggy, full with copy paste materials, unplayable until the first patch, 4-7 hours of repetative gameplay... or movies, where the trailers are telling the whole story and presenting all the best moments in a 3 minutes long trailer, while the rest 97 minutes is a boring, predictible cliche. Or when the customer is buying a legal DVD which is starting with 5 minutes of warnings and unskippable advertisements. So when the promises are also not fulfilled at all, yet you've spent X USD because you expect something what is promised... and what you're never going to get, because you've been cheated. Now this is the point where the people used to say... okay, I rather downloading it (Games, Movies, Novels, etc, etc..) before I would buy anything anymore. And the same is happening with novels. Those ones whose are downloading a novel are disappointed somewhere in the past.

But what you must know, 65-75% of those who is downloading something and satisfied with the product, that one is also buying it. But if these people are not buying the product, even after downloading, in most cases that means the product sucks on every possible level, regardless from the critiques and the advertisements. But I also can list few examples, where the downloadings never bothered the sales, rather helped them because the product was that good. The essence is: downloading products is the result of "quantity over quality" world. Novels included.

If the product is good, piracy can be a free advertisement.

And the author in the mentioned blog article is also right... in many cases publishers used to kill the product with their DRM enforcements and restrictions. What they can't realize, people in general don't give a damn about their restrictions. Whoever want to see a movie, play a game, read a novel, that one will do that. And it's not the fault of the downloader, because the downloader is just adapting to the situation.

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Re: Thieves and ignorance.

Post by Margo » February 2nd, 2011, 10:20 am

I can't believe all the excuses people come up with for taking something they didn't produce and didn't pay for...and the person who did WORK to produce it should be grateful. Well, when that author doesn't get published next time, when her hopes and dreams are crushed, you can feel very proud of it, right? After all, there are all these moral justifications for a act that had been considered immoral and illegal since laws were first codified. But, hey, it's convenient and you once got ''cheated" by someone else when you bought something and didn't like it and the publishing companies are evil and everyone does it and the writer should be on her belly licking your boots because you lowered yourself to read her writing anyway.

What goes around come around. You make the world you live in with your own attitudes and behaviors, so if you live in a crappy world where people steal and degrade that which is most dear to you, maybe it's because you think that's okay to do to someone else.

To paraphrase Plato, the reward or punishment for being the person you are is being the person you are.
sierramcconnell wrote:So...so when I lend a copy of a book to someone...and let them read it...

IT'S LETTING THEM STEAL IT BECAUSE THEY READ IT WITHOUT PAYING THE AUTHOR FOR THE PRIVLEDGE?!
If you BOUGHT it in the first place, it's not stealing any more than reading a library copy is stealing. The initial sale was recorded and will help the author get her next book published. I can't believe I even have to explain the difference between lending someone something you bought and stealing something you didn't buy.
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Down the well
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Re: Thieves and ignorance.

Post by Down the well » February 2nd, 2011, 10:35 am

Margo wrote:To paraphrase Plato, the reward or punishment for being the person you are is being the person you are.
*big smile*

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Re: Thieves and ignorance.

Post by Margo » February 2nd, 2011, 10:36 am

"Quotation is a serviceable substitute for wit." -- Oscar Wilde

Ummm, but paraphrasing...does that qualify? :)
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Down the well
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Re: Thieves and ignorance.

Post by Down the well » February 2nd, 2011, 10:39 am

Margo wrote:"Quotation is a serviceable substitute for wit." -- Oscar Wilde

Ummm, but paraphrasing...does that qualify? :)
It's a reasonable substitution for wisdom. :)

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Re: Thieves and ignorance.

Post by Guardian » February 2nd, 2011, 11:18 am

Margo wrote:You make the world you live in with your own attitudes and behaviors, so if you live in a crappy world where people steal and degrade that which is most dear to you, maybe it's because you think that's okay to do to someone else.
Oh, I would agree with this, but the question is... whose fault is this? The fault of the audience or the ones whose are creating it? I believe the answer is somewhere half way between the two. In many cases the customers are blamed for everything, usually for the poor sales, while the companies are used to ruin many things in general, but it's easier to blame the people or the creator instead of looking around in the company instead. The creator, the writer may come up with brilliant ideas if the publisher or the production company is ruining the product with their "brilliant" flash ideas or poor decisions. I've seen this many times, I even experienced it too with one of my stories where I was the writer, but I had the very last word in it, because everyone in the publisher company knew better how to create a world and tell a story. Yep, we've seen it in the end, who was right. Then the company and the publisher is blamed the pirates, while the poor sales came from the lack of quality, what is came from their own incompetence and decisions during the production.

The general problem is; it's easier to point always at the audience, blame them, but the source of the problems, even in piracy, used to come from a different side. If we're speaking about piracy, please make a difference between sides and sides as three sides are existing, not just two. Usually the third side is always washing their hands and blaming others, audience or the creator, while the problem is usually coming from the third side's own incompetence. But the audience know this and they're sharing their own experience with others. And in this case, the domino effect comes.
But, hey, it's convenient and you once got ''cheated" by someone else when you bought something and didn't like it and the publishing companies are evil and everyone does it and the writer should be on her belly licking your boots because you lowered yourself to read her writing anyway.
Same goes for the companies and publishers (Mostly for game and movie publishers). It's convenient to say, it's the fault of the audience, but they're the ones whose promised many wonderful things via their advertisements, then the product worth the 5% of it's true price, because it's not holding the promises at all. The problem is, the laws are protecting the companies, not the audience... otherwise many publisher companies, especially in the movie and gaming world would be out of business already.

What many forget nowadays, cheating the audience, the people with false promises is also thieving.

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Re: Thieves and ignorance.

Post by Margo » February 2nd, 2011, 11:35 am

Guardian wrote:What many forget nowadays, cheating the audience, the people with false promises is also thieving.

If the promises are false, why bother to steal the work in the first place? If the promises are false, don't buy or steal.
Guardian wrote:
Margo wrote:You make the world you live in with your own attitudes and behaviors, so if you live in a crappy world where people steal and degrade that which is most dear to you, maybe it's because you think that's okay to do to someone else.
Oh, I would agree with this, but the question is... whose fault is this?
Everyone who is willingly participating, unless someone is forcing people to steal.
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Guardian
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Re: Thieves and ignorance.

Post by Guardian » February 2nd, 2011, 11:46 am

Margo wrote:
Guardian wrote:What many forget nowadays, cheating the audience, the people with false promises is also thieving.
If the promises are false, why bother to steal the work in the first place? If the promises are false, don't buy or steal.
Ah-hah! That's what I wanted to hear, because with this I can present you the catch 22. You'll learn you've been cheated IF you already bought the product. And there is no refund for these promises. So, who is stealing in the first place? Not the audience who bought everything legally, yet they're restricted with stupid DRMs, and was cheated because they're getting something quite different for their money. Then after they've been cheated numerous times, they've enough and they're searching for alternate methods. That's piracy. Everything has a cause and effect. The illusion, the lies what some companies are doing in their advertisement and then giving half products, or something else for the audience's money is the cause. The piracy is the effect, an alternate solution of the audience. If there is no cause, there is no effect. But as there is cause, there is an effect.
Everyone who is willingly participating, unless someone is forcing people to steal.
What you misunderstood in piracy is the following; people are usually testing the product BEFORE buying it, before being cheated again (If they find the product worthy to buy it at all.). But cheated people won't spend 49.99, 20, or even 5 USD for something, which sounds good, but it's something else in the reality. I'm not supporting pirates (I have a company black list instead.), but I can understand them, as just as many I also got different products for my money in many cases, something else what was promised (Movies, games, novels, etc, etc...). Actually the companies are forcing the people to "steal" with their false promises and lies. That's the sad fact.

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Re: Thieves and ignorance.

Post by Margo » February 2nd, 2011, 11:53 am

BS, Guardian. Many many many novels have free chapter downloads available that do allow people to sample work. Samples are available on author websites and on Amazon and on blogs during blog tours. These are the equivalent of movie trailers.

And even if they were not available, the answer is theft? No, the answer is to stop purchasing from that supplier. That will either make them change their behavior or put them out of business...without resorting to theft.
Guardian wrote:Actually the companies are forcing the people to "steal" with their false promises and lies. That's the sad fact.
No, that's a moral contortion. Unless there is a gun to your head, no one is forcing people to steal.
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Re: Thieves and ignorance.

Post by Sommer Leigh » February 2nd, 2011, 12:01 pm

Guardian wrote:
But, hey, it's convenient and you once got ''cheated" by someone else when you bought something and didn't like it and the publishing companies are evil and everyone does it and the writer should be on her belly licking your boots because you lowered yourself to read her writing anyway.
Same goes for the companies and publishers (Mostly for game and movie publishers). It's convenient to say, it's the fault of the audience, but they're the ones whose promised many wonderful things via their advertisements, then the product worth the 5% of it's true price, because it's not holding the promises at all. The problem is, the laws are protecting the companies, not the audience... otherwise many publisher companies, especially in the movie and gaming world would be out of business already.

What many forget nowadays, cheating the audience, the people with false promises is also thieving.
This is clearly a subject that is emotionally jarring for both sides of the line. Thank you everyone for discussing and debating it in such an honest and considerate way. It would be easy for this topic to spiral out of control.

You can blame the audience for illegally downloading a product, whether it is a book or music or movie, when it is illegal to do so. There aren't any excuses at all that make it not illegal. You can't go to the grocery store, pick up a box of pasta and walk out the door with it because you're not going to pay for it unless you like how dinner tastes. Barnes and Noble won't let you walk in and take a paperback off the shelf and walk out as long as you promise to come back and pay for it if you like it. That's not the way it works. If you hear a really great commercial for a cafe and you think it sounds like a great place to stop and get coffee and a muffin and then you sit down and eat the muffin and drink the coffee and it really wasn't as awesome as the commercial made it sound, you can't demand your money back. If you choose to try something out, you make that choice and if it isn't to your liking well, you know next time. Someone else might think it is great and businesses can't base who pays for what products on the individual consumer's personal tastes.

There are no acceptable excuses for stealing and I think it is a bad idea to expect a writer to just be happy people are reading their work. This isn't a weekend hobby, it's a business. Authors, and other artists, are no different than chefs or baristas or doctors. They deserve to be paid for their work. And if you can't afford to pay for it or you don't know whether you'll like it then you go to the library and check it out for free from a venue that paid for the book and keeps track of how often it gets checked out. And when it gets checked out a lot they will legally buy more copies all of which gets reported to their publisher and the author gets to write another book.

And I don't believe borrowing is the same thing as downloading illegally. You might loan a book to what, three or four friends? You're not lending your book to 13,000 of your closest friends.

What I find surprising is that there is any debate at all over whether or not it is ok to download an illegal book from an illegal distributor. Stripping the debate of the emotional reactions, society says stealing is wrong. Our society says dowloading from illegal distributors is stealing.
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sierramcconnell
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Re: Thieves and ignorance.

Post by sierramcconnell » February 2nd, 2011, 12:04 pm

Actually, there is one instance in which companies are forcing people to steal.

Not allowing something to be available for sell.

Back when I was into manga and anime, and it wasn't available over in America, it was hard for people to get it here. So people put it up for download. The movies, episodes, scantranslations, and music, which was not available for sale or resale, was available for free. But people were encouraged to buy it if they could. If you could find it for sale, it was marked up so amazingly high (one DVD of two episodes not even in English would run you $89.99 in some cases) that it wasn't possible to afford it for people working jobs like I was at the time.

However, some people saved up and bought things as they could. (Those things are rare now and go for high dollar. I bought a locket for $20 a long time ago and recently it sold for $200 on eBay. Ah, the days when manga\anime wasn't everywhere and it was cool to be weird...)

Anyway...what I'm saying is...they were forcing us to steal and live underground. They refused to sell to us. We ran petitions and begged and finally, as you can see, it paid off, but now they're sueing the very people who gave them their living, if you look into the current problem with scantranslators and DP Manga Group.

It's ridiculous.
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