Popularity

[dios4vida]

Okay, I'm not bashing Twilight. Honestly, I'm not. The fact that I'm not a fan has nothing to do with this post.

But, since I'm not a Twilight fan my Mom sent me this link. At first I just thought it was funny but then I got thinking about it and realized that they have a very good point here! Watch first, discussion later:



What caught my writerly attention is the comment about Bella being an empty vessel through which the women reading can live their perfect fantasy courtship with Edward. Talk about drawing your readers into the story! And since we were just talking about character descriptions (viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2999) I thought this was a very good visual of what many people were saying: too much description can hinder the reader's ability to relate to the main character. This is an example of how a minimal description works very well for Stephanie Meyer - it makes every woman live the romance of Edward & Bella.

Any further comments?

[Margo]

I love that you found a visual illustration of what we were talking about. I think it was the Tor editors who suggested reading...gosh, I'm trying to recall the name of the book. I might have to look it up at home and post it later. Anyway, it's a book about writing comics, and it makes the points we were discussing about making the character the readers are supposed to identify with the least visually defined. The figure of Bella in the cartoon sooooo reminded me of the book.

I had a realllly interesting workshop with them. They recommended a particular chess book, a particular stage magician's book, and the first season of the Sopranos.

[lmjackson]

Okay, point noted.

BUT

I don't buy that every author should start creating empty shells through which every reader can imagine themselves and therefore be more in tune with the story. In fact, that seems like a cop out. Shouldn't a talented writer be able to draw readers in with a FULLY characterized protagonist?

Hence why Harry Potter and J.K. Rowling always and forever trump Twilight and Stephanie Meyers.

The End :D

[dios4vida]

Okay, point noted.

BUT

I don't buy that every author should start creating empty shells through which every reader can imagine themselves and therefore be more in tune with the story. In fact, that seems like a cop out. Shouldn't a talented writer be able to draw readers in with a FULLY characterized protagonist?

Hence why Harry Potter and J.K. Rowling always and forever trump Twilight and Stephanie Meyers.

The End :D

Good point! I never meant to say that this is the way it should be done (did I mention that I REALLY hate Twilight??) but that it's a good example of how this phenomenon works. Or that there's finally a rational explanation of why Twilight is so popular.

LONG LIVE HARRY POTTER AND PERCY JACKSON!!

[Margo]

I don't buy that every author should start creating empty shells through which every reader can imagine themselves and therefore be more in tune with the story. In fact, that seems like a cop out. Shouldn't a talented writer be able to draw readers in with a FULLY characterized protagonist?

I don't think the point is 'empty shell'. It's about emphasing universal traits instead of hair color and body type. One could turn the statement around to say, shouldn't a talented writer be able to create a full realized character without relying on the window dressing of appearance? Both extremes would prove problematic.

The same goes for settings. It only takes five or six choice details to render a setting that the reader feels, yet some writers feel the need to go on for several continuous paragraphs -- which most people will skim anyway.

[Guardian]

This was an interesting video. Now, Steph Meyer had a good sense how to create a novel which is capable to grab a wider audience (Teenage girls). Is she a bad writer because of this? Nope, definitely not. Is she good? Personally I can't decide after one series, which is building on the very same setting and characters. But if she is capable to create another successful novel, yes, she is a good writer, because in this case she knows what her readers want to read.

I write characters with detailed characteristics and style, along with highly detailed worlds, but maybe on one day I'm going to try Steph Meyer's "empty shell" approach. It's going to be an interesting experiment.

[Mira]

Lol - cute video. But I don't think we should accept it as actual fact about the book. :)

Bella is not an empty shell, she has quite a distinct personality. And the book does actually describe her at length.

As for the fantasy formula of an overlooked female and a perfect hot, sensitive speciman of a man who decides she is special and worthy of love, you can look to any romance novel on the shelf. They sell thousands of them.

Know what else they sell thousands of? Pictures of women so gorgeous they couldn't exist in real life. The purpose of these pictures are so that men can fantasize having sex with these gorgeous women.

I have some issues with Twilight, but that has more to do with gender roles. But romance is one of the bread and butters of the publishing industry - I have no issue with that!

[dios4vida]

Please let me say that I have nothing against Stephanie Meyer. I applaud her success and know she has to have done many things right to have earned the popularity she has. Just because Twilight isn't my cup of tea doesn't mean it's drivel. It just means I personally don't like it.

I just wanted to clarify that. I'm not trying to bash Meyer or Twilight.

[lmjackson]

I don't buy that every author should start creating empty shells through which every reader can imagine themselves and therefore be more in tune with the story. In fact, that seems like a cop out. Shouldn't a talented writer be able to draw readers in with a FULLY characterized protagonist?

I don't think the point is 'empty shell'. It's about emphasing universal traits instead of hair color and body type. One could turn the statement around to say, shouldn't a talented writer be able to create a full realized character without relying on the window dressing of appearance? Both extremes would prove problematic.

True, but the "empty shell" is more than appearance. As the video said, which is fully supported by the series (of which I have read 3.5/4 books lol). Bella has very little personality to offer besides "awkward and insecure". Which would be a fine start, Harry started in much the same way. But she remains a static character. And the fact that Meyer refuses to give her any real flaws just miffs me like no other.

[polymath]

Bella flaws. Sneaking around behind her father's back. Pursuing a bad boy. Keeping important secrets from her father and her mother. Sneaking bad boy into her bedroom and dating him without informing her father or mother. The awkward new comer emerges as a socialite and the love interest of a socially elitist clique member and a social elitist herself. She keeps important secrets from her new bestest friend and friends. Runs away from home. Keeps important secrets from her bad boy boyfriend. Impure thoughts of self-serving justifications and self-deprecating excuses. Oh my, human, young woman, struggling with forging an independent self-identity separate from her parentally imposed identity. Mixed messages all, just right for the target audience struggling with the same adult initiation concerns. Take away the vampire premise and it's Maureen Daly's Seventeenth Summer, 1942. Not to mention traditional fairy tale fables "The Ugly Duckling" and Beauty and the Beast.

[Margo]

True, but the "empty shell" is more than appearance. As the video said, which is fully supported by the series (of which I have read 3.5/4 books lol). Bella has very little personality to offer besides "awkward and insecure". Which would be a fine start, Harry started in much the same way. But she remains a static character. And the fact that Meyer refuses to give her any real flaws just miffs me like no other.

Agreed. I think our comments are not quite connecting because I am referring in large part to what we were discussing in the other thread dios4vida referenced, which was specifically about how much physical description was necessary/a good idea for a character/a protagonist.

Is Bella a nearly empty shell personality-wise? In my opinion, yes. I'm not bashing Twilight in saying I don't care for that.

[lmjackson]

Bella flaws. Sneaking around behind her father's back. Pursuing a bad boy. Keeping important secrets from her father and her mother. Sneaking bad boy into her bedroom and dating him without informing her father or mother. The awkward new comer emerges as a socialite and the love interest of a socially elitist clique member and a social elitist herself. She keeps important secrets from her new bestest friend and friends. Runs away from home. Keeps important secrets from her bad boy boyfriend. Impure thoughts of self-serving justifications and self-deprecating excuses.

But these are all seemingly excused in the name of true love. Jacob is portrayed as a creep (in the books not so much in the movies) for pursuing a girl who has obviously already lost her heart. Charlie is overprotective because "how could he not see that Edward is a good/great/thebestever guy?". Even the whole Edward-sneaking-into-her-room-to-spend-the-night thing is really not painted as a rebellious action, its actually treated as if its perfectly normal. Something I didn't really think about until just now.

By the fourth book I just couldn't stand it. When she

Spoiler:

turns into a vampire... of course Bella happens to be the most controlled, super fantastic vampire that ever lived. I literally stopped reading, set the book down and said "I give up". As a preteen I absolutely loved Twilight. I read the book before there was a sequel, around 7 years ago before anyone had even heard of it. But now I don't think I can stomach it. Maybe it's not poor plot or poor characters, I've just fallen out of Meyer's demographic. I can't fit myself into that "shell" anymore.

[polymath]

As a preteen I absolutely loved Twilight. I read the book before there was a sequel, around 7 years ago before anyone had even heard of it. But now I don't think I can stomach it. Maybe it's not poor plot or poor characters, I've just fallen out of Meyer's demographic. I can't fit myself into that "shell" anymore.

I'm way out of Meyer's demographic, not even close to anyone in her invented world. The only reasons I read the first novel was to see what all the buzz was about, approving and disapproving, and to be able to intelligently discuss it with my nieces and grand nieces and their parents who might happen to read it and anyone else who might bring it up.

It's not a coincidence in my estimation that popularity, the thread title, and Twilight's several related themes and the popular appeal novel marketplace are contentious social vehicles driven by ever changing personal sentiments and fickle personality cults.

[Nicole R]

Well, I was a little disturbed by the video on many levels :) but I'll try to keep to the original question. If by "empty vessel" you mean that Meyer's target audience found Bella relatable, then yeah, I guess you're right. Authors would be smart to draw on character traits that readers can relate to or at least find intriguing.

Beyond that, though, I don't really buy the "empty vessel" idea--for Bella or in general. Besides the whole pining for Edward detour (which, I'll admit got a little old), I think people overlook the fact that Meyer did give Bella some stronger character traits. She's very protective of both her parents, and during her pregnancy she argues with both Jacob and Edward over the safety of her child. Sure, she's not the perfect example of a strong character and maybe the execution wasn't great, but it's still a disservice to say she's a flat empty vessel.

The "empty vessel" idea also doesn't give the reader enough credit. Who wants to read about boring, empty characters with no personality? No one! C'mon, readers are smart and if they're gravitating toward a character, there's a reason.

[J. T. SHEA]

So THAT'S where they got the idea for Lego Star Wars! I feel a mash-up coming on. TWINLIGHT: BELLA MEETS JEDWARD, in which our brick girl falls in love with two fine upstanding young Irish pop stars. Well, okay, it's their HAIR that's upstanding...