POV question

[polymath]

No, I think it would be dynamic. The one area where I might have concern with a multiple viewpoint character novel is the target age group audience. Middle graders aren't up to the challenge of multiple viewpoints. Young adults are capable of processing a couple of viewpoints but challenged nonetheless. Early adults are up to processing several disparate viewpoints. Three viewpoints seems to me a good number for dramatic interpersonal clash purposes suitable for older young adults and older readers.

If I were your writing mentor and you were my protégé, I'd recommend studying the techiniques of multiple viewpoint character narratives you like, especially beginning openings and scene endings and openings where setups and transitions occur and how the scenes close in and pull back narrative distance.

J.R.R. Tolkien's Lord of the Rings sometimes overt, sometimes covert narrator reports an ensemble of viewpoint characters. Let's see, Frodo, Sam, Merry, Pippin, Gandalf, Aragorn, Gollum, and Sauron at least.

All of John Grisham's thriller narrators report several viewpoint characters, fully covert narrators. Many of Tom Clancy's do also though his narrators are also sometimes overt and sometimes covert.

E. Annie Proulx's The Shipping News, coprotagonists Quoyle and Agnis Hamm, two viewpoint characters, though Quoyle's predominates.

Jonathan Franzen's The Corrections has five viewpoint characters reported by a fully covert narrator.

Franzen's Freedom, a protagonist, Patty Berglund housewife; husband Walter Berglund, a deuteragonist, environmental activist-lawyer; codeuteragonist Richard Katz, musician, best friend of Walter's, family friend and love interest of Patty's; triagonist Joey Berglund, son. Auxilliary characters: Joey's love interest neighbor Connie; Jessica, Berglund daughter; and Lalitha work associate and love interest of Walter's. Patty, Walter, Richard, and Joey, four principal viewpoint characters reported by a mostly covert narrator, except the opening chapter where the narrator is fully overt. Some critics didn't care for the opening chapter setup though.

[bcomet]

More thoughts/questions regarding POV.

In third-person, is it more gradual/artful to show the scene first from outside the head (if it's needed) but once the scene is set, then go inside the character POV head and filter everything else in a scene (and/or chapter through the head POV)?

How do you transition between overview and inside views gracefully?

Any examples (sentences/paragraphs that can pasted here)?

[Watcher55]

More thoughts/questions regarding POV.

In third-person, is it more gradual/artful to show the scene first from outside the head (if it's needed) but once the scene is set, then go inside the character POV head and filter everything else in a scene (and/or chapter through the head POV)?

How do you transition between overview and inside views gracefully?

Any examples (sentences/paragraphs that can pasted here)?

This alley, like most alleys in the subura, was nasty. It stank of raw sewage, rotting things and dead flesh. She gagged as she fought the need to vomit. There was a tiny scream and something soft squirmed under her foot. She stumbled forward and her evening meal shot from her mouth in a horrifying volley. Her vision darkened and she wanted to scream. She wanted to cry. A flood of tears burned her eyes. She couldn’t scream because the retching refused to stop. A fist inside her chest clenched in her gut trying to expel something that wasn’t there. She gasped then screamed. “Wh-wh-wh-hack,” wheeze, “WHAA” heave. A thin stream of saliva hung from her lip and she was reduced to ragged sobs and raspy groans. The darkness cleared; she heard the flames behind her and the vermin at her feet.

This one kinda starts from the outside then shows her behavior. From there it goes deeper then escapes again. Alot like - well, vomit. I guess this is what you're talkin' about.

[bcomet]

Yes. Thank you. The more examples of artful outside-inside-outside transitions, the better! Very Helpful. Thanks.

[polymath]

This alley, like most alleys in the subura, was nasty. It stank of raw sewage, rotting things and dead flesh. She gagged as she fought the need to vomit. There was a tiny scream and something soft squirmed under her foot.

Not to critique Watcher55's post, but to illustrate subtle points;

Great first sentence. "Like most alleys in the subura" and "was nasty" are patently personal viewpoint character sensation and cognitive commentary reported by the narrator. In other words, from the viewpoint character's perspective, not the narrator's, who is covert for the sentence. Both personas are in play favoring the viewpoint character. Viewpoint character external visual sensation perception and internal willful thought cognition close narrative distance.

Second sentence is an olfactory sensory perception, a bridging sentence, fair to good. Both viewpoint character and reporting narrator personas are in play, not particularly favoring either. I think if the descriptions expressed stronger viewpoint character commentary the sentence would be more potent and close in closer to the viewpoint character rather than the narrator just adding a report to the setting description. How might the viewpoint character feel about or uniquely describe the raw sewage, rotting things, and dead flesh? And/or describe and show in more vivid detail the raw sewage, rotting things, and dead flesh? Like //raw sewage with mysterious floaties . . .// But that's from my vocabulary not necessarily the viewpoint character's.

Not as good third sentence, seemingly intended as a visceral punch line sentence for the previous sentences' sensory setup. "She gagged as she fought the need to vomit." "As she fought the need to vomit" favors the narrator, steps back from the viewpoint character's perception of gagging, though it is an action that can be seen from outside or felt from inside. "As she fought the need to vomit." I'd label the second independent clause a narrator's tell taking me aside to explain "her" actions. The "as" conjunction joins two seemingly concurrent actions; however, causation seems reversed.

//She fought the need to vomit as she gagged.// Seems more timely logical linear causation. Recasting, though, brings up the same concerns with the conjunction word as joining seemingly but perhaps nonconcurrent actions and from the narrator taking me aside to explain "her" actions. Replacing as with while or when, stronger conjunction words, doesn't in my estimation improve the sentence. I'm not sure about "need to vomit" coming from the viewpoint character's perceptions or cognitions either. That seems purely from the narrator's perception of "her" gagging sensation.

I'd recast, again, bringing forward the viewpoint character's unique detailed perception and cognition and background the narrator's explanation. //She swallowed down burning bile. Swallowed hard again. Gagged.// Again, me there.

I thnk the fourth sentence would be better in third position.

[bcomet]

Very informative, Polymath. I am starting to see how subtle this can get.

Can you give other examples of artful transitions?
I am learning here.
I would appreciate all strong examples of how this can be done artfully to ground my understanding.
(And/or comparisons between examples of strong and weak.)

Thanks.

[polymath]

I'll get to it when I take breaks from working. I've got ten hours of work to do due tomorrow.

[cheekychook]

Very informative, Polymath. I am starting to see how subtle this can get.

Can you give other examples of artful transitions?
I am learning here.
I would appreciate all strong examples of how this can be done artfully to ground my understanding.
(And/or comparisons between examples of strong and weak.)

Thanks.

I don't have any artful transitions at the tip of fingers, but given the types of questions you're asking I'd suggest two things: 1) When you're writing try to think of the scene as though you're watching it through a camera lens and slowly zoom in until you're in the character's head (not literally, that would be gross)---think about scenes in movies where you start out with a wide shot and the focus narrows until you know what a character is thinking/seeing/feeling, perhaps even before any dialogue or narration occurs 2) If you don't already, try narrating what's going on in your own head...again, start wide, then gradually narrow your thoughts. Varying the speed of the zoom causes a different impact----if there's an external thought followed by a very personal internal thought that can be jarring or it can be wonderfully dramatic---it all depends on the situation.

[polymath]

Hemingway's writing exemplifies the narration methods cheekchook gives. A camera looking at and seeing what a viewpoint character sees and thinks and simultaneously directly seeing and direcly reporting from outside a viewpoint character's perspective. Hemingway's narrators tend to be openly overt and at times less than fully covert while favoring a single focal viewpoint character. Narrative distance is somewhat remote in his narratives, which is one reason why many readers have difficulty engaging with them.

Hemingway didn't care for close engagement. He favored Bertol Brecht's defamiliarization or distancing or estrangement effect known as Verfremdungseffekt. The basic principle of Verfremdungseffekt is maintaining a remote narrative distance so audiences or readers are able to engage their conscious, critical thinking faculties without getting too caught up by participation mystiques. Verfremdungseffekt is generally productive for literary fiction, certainly traditionally, but not necessarily significant anymore. Anyway, overt narrators are one of many methods for creating Verfremdungseffekt.

Overt narrators are introduced in opening beginnings so readers know who's reporting to them and who's expressing commentary about topics and themes and subjects and so selectively accessing multiple viewpoint characters in the same scene doesn't seem to come out of the blue.

Opening paragraphs The Old Man and the Sea, Ernest Hemingway, 1952, renewal 1980 copyrights.

  He was an old man who fished alone in a skiff in the Gulf Stream and he had gone eight-four days now without taking a fish. In the first forty days a boy had been with him. But after forty days without a fish the boy's parents had told him the old man was now definitely and finally salao, which is the worst form of unlucky, and the boy had gone at their orders in another boat which caught three good fish the first week. It made the boy sad to see the old man come in each day with his skiff empty and he always went down to help him carry either the coiled lines or the gaff and harpoon and the sail that was furled around the mast. The flag was patched with flour sacks and, furled, it looked like the flag of permanent defeat.
  The old man was thin and gaunt with deep wrinkles in the back of his neck. The brown blotches of the benevolent skin cancer the sun brings from its reflection on the tropic sea were on his cheeks. The blotches ran well down the sides of his face and his hands had the deep-creased scars from handling heavy fish on the cords. But none of these scars were fresh. They were as old as erosions in a fishless desert.
  Everything about him was old except his eyes and they were the same color as the sea and were cheerful and undefeated.
  "Santiago," the boy said to him as they climbed the bank from where the skiff was hauled up. "I could go with you again. We've made some money."

The narrator stays at arm's length throughout and throughout the novella, yet skims Manillo, the boy, and Santiago, the protagonist, the old man's perceptions and thoughts and reports on the perceptions and thoughts of others. But the narrator is the one who expresses commentary in the passage. First of all, salao is a provincial Spanish and Cuban idiom meaning cursed, Manillo's parents' perception of what's wrong with Santiago and the narrative's main dramatic complication. The narrator's commentary, "it looked like the flag of permanent defeat," Narrator's perception of what Santiago looks like, then commentary, "They were as old as erosions in a fishless desert." A simile expressed by the narrator. More description commentary of Santiago's eyes, transitioning into the narrator's perception of Santiago's state of mind contrasted with the appearance of the sail saying Santiago had given up, "they were the same color as the sea and were cheerful and undefeated."

Note the narrator directly reports Manillo's thoughts about Santiago. "It made the boy sad." Also note Santiago's name is introduced by the boy's dialogue.

Though the novella stays in close touch with Santiago throughout, the overt narrator is never very far away. Every interior perception and cognition, every verbal utterance is tagged and directly reported, "he thought," "the old man said", "he saw" and so on, no free indirect discourse whatsoever. The advantages are the narrator can report how Santiago appears when he's alone in his boat at sea and report perceptions Santiago cannot logically be aware of and express commentary. The disadvantages are narrative distance is remote and access to thoughts tend to be limited.

I admire Hemingway's writing, but want a little closer participation mystique with characters, settings, actions, perceptions, feelings, and thoughts. In my opinion, his methods aren't as effective for engaging today's readers in participation msytiques, though there survives a consensus of readers who thrive on Verfremdungseffekt.

Anway, that's overt narration by a master for contrast and comparison purposes. Next installment, close, covert third person narration, perhaps of Lewis Carroll's Alice's Adventures in Wonderland. Another single viewpoint narrative. I'll be contemplating Tom Clancy's Clear and Present Danger for close covert third person narration with multiple viewpoint characters.

[polymath]

Some more about the The Old Man and the Sea's opening before I move on.

Note how the narrator recites (tells) opening backstory then transitions into action and scene description, then character description before dialogue begins.

Hemingway was perhaps one of the last masters of traditional exposition openings before the show don't tell dictate emerged as an imperative writing principle during mid Twentieth century Postmodern cultural upheavals. But then Hemingway was a Modernist.

Opening of Lewis Carroll's Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, from Project Gutenberg;
http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext97/alice30h.htm

Down the Rabbit-Hole
Alice was beginning to get very tired of sitting by her sister on the bank, and of having nothing to do: once or twice she had peeped into the book her sister was reading, but it had no pictures or conversations in it, 'and what is the use of a book,' thought Alice 'without pictures or conversation?'

So she was considering in her own mind (as well as she could, for the hot day made her feel very sleepy and stupid), whether the pleasure of making a daisy-chain would be worth the trouble of getting up and picking the daisies, when suddenly a White Rabbit with pink eyes ran close by her.

Closer narrative distance than the Hemingway opening. The narrator is more covert. Using the camera metaphor, the novel is from the inside of Alice's single viewpoint looking out.

"Alice was beginning to get very tired of sitting by her sister on the bank," the opening clause drops right inside Alice and introduces the narrative point of view, mostly a covert third person narrator, and introduces a bridging complication. "Very tired" a subtle narrator estranging metaphor meaning bored but reported from Alice's child-like viewpoint, her personal perspective, perception and cognition. The narrator drops into the background favoring Alice's viewpoint. "Bank" evokes a riverside setting with one word.

"And of having nothing to do:" again, Alice's child-like sensation and thought.

"Once or twice she had peeped into the book her sister was reading," "Once or twice" a vague impression of past time (backstory) almost forgotten by Alice. The vagueness favors Alice's child-like perception and cognition.

"But it had no pictures or conversations in it," patently a child's perception of a book. Again, favoring Alice.

" 'And what is the use of a book,' thought Alice 'without pictures or conversation?' " Interior discourse ironical rhetorical question, patently a child's cognition of a book. Again, favoring Alice's perception and cognition. Traditional style single quote marks bracketing a tagged direct thought. "Thought Alice" tags the direct thought and recalls the narrator's presence for a quiet, pending transition setup from Alice's thoughts and out into the landscape.

"So she was considering in her own mind (as well as she could, for the hot day made her feel very sleepy and stupid)," cognition then perception still in Alice's viewpoint, but the parenthetical aside recalls the narrator again.

"Whether the pleasure of making a daisy-chain would be worth the trouble of getting up and picking the daisies," Alice's child-like thoughts look outward at daisies, cognition then perception. The transition is in full swing.

"When suddenly a White Rabbit with pink eyes ran close by her." Completed transition away from Alice's interior perceptions and cognitions, perceiving her outer world. But still immediately from inside her personal perception.

[bcomet]

Much good information. Thanks.

[polymath]

I'll get back to the topic after the holidays. Dissecting this stuff and interpolating it into written responses is tough on the ol' brain box. I know what I read and interpret mentally, internally. Getting the wording right for sharing is challenging.

[bcomet]

You are the Best, Polymath, and a great and generous sharer here on these forums. Thanks!

AND MERRY CHRISTMAS!
and
HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO ALL!

I hope that all of your New Year Wishes Come True!

-bc

[bcomet]

So, back to my original confusion... About just what is and isn't a settled/unsettled point of view:

The sample instructive writing piece with the POV comment by one editor/teacher (earlier written about in this thread)*
(*(she called the problem an unsettled point of view)

was shown (for comparison and clarification) to a completely different editor/workshop leader who did not convey any of the same concerns (but indeed had others but with the caveat that on a small sampling of a larger work, that the whole picture was not yet revealed enough to be certain about certain editorial redirection).

Both editors are considered professionals, with track records, so neither of these are amateurs.

But their opinions seem different.

I have been trying hard to follow and study this, including a read of (first editor/teacher's reference to) Orson Scott Card's Character and Viewpoint.

The grace with which the "camera" shifts seems necessary. But, even in the same paragraph, OSC has an example where the omni-POV sees inside two characters' heads alternatively. (Pg. 156) It still baffles me then to understand the comments of editor # one.

Any light for me? (Still trying to get these nuances...)

What does a settled or unsettled POV look like, especially in Third Person-Omni?

[cheekychook]

Don't make yourself too crazy dwelling on this. While there are lots of rules, guidelines, etc concerning the issue of pov there's also a good deal of personal preference regarding how it's handled. The editors may just have very different views on what is unsettling and what is fine. I'm sure polymath will have a much more detailed and eloquent response which will contain far more useful information for you, but seriously, keep in mind the subjective aspects of reading.