Prologues

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polymath
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Re: Prologues

Post by polymath » October 29th, 2010, 1:10 pm

bcomet wrote:It doesn't have to be fast paced, explosions, action! action! action! but it has to capture the imagination and attention of the viewer and compel the question: what happens next?
Number one on the suspense question parade: What happens next? Combined with empathy's pity and fear or another high magnitude emotional cluster, they're the building blocks of tension, keeping outcomes in doubt, compelling greater and greater efforts to address a complication and achieve a purpose, and posing escalating clashing forces.

What happens next? is the root suspense question for the who done it of mystery, the why did it happen of thriller and horror, the will the love interests or won't they of romance, or the will the hero or heroine get the bad guy or gal of Western. Fantasy, science fiction, and literary genres are not as readily categorized by their core suspense questions.
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Re: Prologues

Post by saraflower » October 29th, 2010, 1:17 pm

Margo wrote:
saraflower wrote:
As for the comparison to movies, I am cautious about that. Screenplay structure has a lot in common with novel structure, but the flesh that goes on those bones is quite different. The visual display on the screen does not translate directly to the page in a novel. The strength of the novel is the equivalent of what the actor provides in a movie, the emotional context. Action and fast pace, particularly right off the bat, usually falls flat because the reader doesn't have a reason to care yet -- no emotional context. That's one of the reasons fantasies with big battle scene prologues (to make up for slow starting chapters) result in an immediate form rejection with a number of agents.

However, if the prologue exists more more than just that reason, it's not necessarily a problem.
Good point.

With my book, it's not that my first two chapters are slow, but the feel of the story is much different. It is almost in another genre. Then it switches quickly in chapter three. When the time comes, I'll get some critique buds and get their take on what would work best with my particular story.

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Re: Prologues

Post by Margo » October 29th, 2010, 1:21 pm

saraflower wrote:When the time comes, I'll get some critique buds and get their take on what would work best with my particular story.
Yeah, I think that's always helpful. If they're amenable, I'd suggest giving them a large chunk of the novel (if not the whole thing) and have them read it the way they would a novel already produced. If the change in tone is jarring or strange for them, they're more likely to notice it this way than if they're only reading a chapter a week.
Urban fantasy, epic fantasy, and hot Norse elves. http://margolerwill.blogspot.com/

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polymath
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Re: Prologues

Post by polymath » October 29th, 2010, 1:35 pm

Margo wrote:
polymath wrote:They start in medias res...
I think that's an important distinction, though I'm not sure it's the one polymath is intending with this. Starting in the middle of action that would have been in the story anyway versus tacking on additional action that isn't necessary to the story as a pacing fake-out...
Yeah, in medias res in it's simplest application just means the entire backstory of a protagonist back to mitochondrial Eve isn't given. Some of the early Greek epics provided the entire geneology of the hero in prefatory setups, but then they were also oral history tradtions and audiences wouldn't stand for leaving them out. Even an error of succession order could result in the audience assaulting an orator. In medias res emerged about at the time of Aristotle circa 350 BCE in formal oration, but had been around for a long time before in folklore traditions.

The point in a timeline for a best practice start is the First Cause of the unfolding action. It doesn't necessarily follow another cause. For example, the First Cause of Donna Tart's The Secret History is a murder scene. It's a nonlinear timeline opening from which the following chapters' backstory flows from in an introspective recollection of what brought protagonist-narrator Richard Papen to the sorry state of affairs he finds himself in the outcome. The timeline catches up to the beginning about at midpoint and then moves toward the final outcome. Though the novel is about people on its surface, its subtext is about the role fate and predetermination play in people's lives. That role all but demands the pivotal First Cause murder scene comes first as the inciting crisis relevant to the subtext, the timeline of the unfolding action, and the outcome.
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Re: Prologues

Post by Margo » October 29th, 2010, 1:58 pm

polymath wrote:Some of the early Greek epics provided the entire geneology of the hero in prefatory setups, but then they were also oral history tradtions and audiences wouldn't stand for leaving them out. Even an error of succession order could result in the audience assaulting an orator.
Yeah, definitely. It was necessary to have that statement of where the warriors came from before they could face one another in battle. Exchanging addresses, as we used to say in Classical Studies. There was a significance to who a warrior was and how he got there. I see similar thinking in pre-Christian Norse culture.
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Re: Prologues

Post by bcomet » October 29th, 2010, 2:14 pm

polymath wrote:Fantasy, science fiction, and literary genres are not as readily categorized by their core suspense questions.
In my experience, "what happens next?" can be absolutely part of

fantasy:

I'm on the edge of my seat waiting to see if Frodo will accomplish his mission -and around every darn corner, another challenge! OMG, waht happens next??? (see, so exciting, I can't even spell.)

scifi:

Will they, really get away from that ALIEN WITH ALL THE TEETH??? YIKES! MOM! It's really gonna get them! I'm holding my breath! That darn metal is echoing. The plastic won't hold it back. There's not enough metal or plastic in this space epic that's going to ever save them from that THING!!! It's going to jump out any minute, around that next not-so-safe corner. Mo-ommmm!!! (Honey, I told you that would give him nightmares!) OMG, what happens next???

literary fiction:

Ian McEwan's Enduring Love: OMG, I couldn't put it down. My psychological state was unfathomable. It twisted my nerves into knots. My blood pressure went UP!!! What happens next???

~~

But you're right that sometimes it's different in tone or pace, but in books/stories that hold me to the pages, it's there.

One of the best things Nathan taught me is that even lit fic has to have a plot.
Last edited by bcomet on October 29th, 2010, 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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polymath
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Re: Prologues

Post by polymath » October 29th, 2010, 2:15 pm

Margo wrote: Yeah, definitely. It was necessary to have that statement of where the warriors came from before they could face one another in battle. Exchanging addresses, as we used to say in Classical Studies. There was a significance to who a warrior was and how he got there. I see similar thinking in pre-Christian Norse culture.
Ditto yeah. Honor demanded a warrior duel on equal footing. Where's the glory of an easy victory over a lesser opponent? The audience would think the warrior is a craven coward. From that honor paradigm comes the weighted balance of forces in opposition so much a part of timeless and contemporary cultural coding conventions expected from literature.
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Re: Prologues

Post by polymath » October 29th, 2010, 2:19 pm

bcomet wrote:
polymath wrote:Fantasy, science fiction, and literary genres are not as readily categorized by their core suspense questions.
In my experience, "what happens next?" can be absolutely part of

fantasy:

I'm on the edge of my seat waiting to see if Frodo will accomplish his mission -and around every darn corner, another challenge! OMG, waht happens next??? (see, so exciting, I can't even spell.)

scifi:

Will they, really get away from that ALIEN WITH ALL THE TEETH??? YIKES! MOM! It's really gonna get them! I'm holding my breath! That darn metal is echoing. The plastic won't hold it back. Theere's not enough metal or plastic in this space epic that's going to ever save them from that Thing!!! It's going to jump out any minute, around that next not-so-safe corner. Mo-ommmm!!! (Honey, I told you that would give him nightmares!) OMG, what happens next???

literary fiction:

Ian McEwan's Enduring Love: OMG, I couldn't put it down. My psychological state was unfathomable. It twisted my nerves into knots. My blood pressure went UP!!! What happens next???

~~

But you're right that sometimes it's different in tone or pace, but in books/stories that hold me to the pages, it's there.

One of the best things Nathan taught me is that even lit lic has to have a plot.
I meant the distinguishable suspense questions of those genres are not so clearcut as they are in other convention-driven genres. I see the What happens next? as fundamental to all suspense questions regardless of genre.
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Re: Prologues

Post by saraflower » October 29th, 2010, 3:02 pm

Margo wrote:
saraflower wrote:When the time comes, I'll get some critique buds and get their take on what would work best with my particular story.
Yeah, I think that's always helpful. If they're amenable, I'd suggest giving them a large chunk of the novel (if not the whole thing) and have them read it the way they would a novel already produced. If the change in tone is jarring or strange for them, they're more likely to notice it this way than if they're only reading a chapter a week.
True! I will definitely try that.

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