Lost - Possible Spoilers!

Because that novel isn't going to delay itself
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maybegenius
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Re: Lost - Possible Spoilers!

Post by maybegenius » May 24th, 2010, 4:34 am

I'm pretty sure the "flash sideways" were supposed to be timeless... they weren't "waiting" for anyone to die, everyone was already dead. Imagine a sort of waiting room at the end of eternity where everyone who has lived and died is hanging out until they're ready to accept their death and move on. That's what it was. The Losties "created" that place so they could find one another again, because they'd played such key roles in one another's lives that they wanted to move on together. They just had to wait until they were all ready to move on, which Desmond jump-started for them.

I really enjoyed the finale. It did leave a LOT of questions unanswered, but I'm okay with that, I think. I'd rather them leave it open to theorizing than give a half-assed explanation no one would have been satisfied with. They were obviously going for the "it was never about finding the answer, it was always about the people and the journey" angle. Which is going to leave a lot of fans angry, I'm sure, but I'm one of the people who feels all right about that.

I think they might have left out Walt because one would assume Walt lived to become a man, and he'd probably be in the purgatory as his adult self, not his child/teen self. Michael was damned to be an Eternal Whisperer on the Island.
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Josin
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Re: Lost - Possible Spoilers!

Post by Josin » May 24th, 2010, 6:23 am

They didn't die in the crash, that was the whole point of Christian's speech "everything happened". They lived out island world, then each moved on and waited in the sideways world until they were all ready to move on (they'd been waiting a while for Hurley and Ben - #1 and #2 - for quite some time, I guess.)

Michael was still stuck on the island as a voice. Walt had no long term connection to the others.

Locke got to put his dad through a bigger version of what he suffered himself. Not only was Anderson paralyzed and in a plane crash, but the con-man who put people at his mercy his whole life was now at the mercy of others. Sayid got to kill Keamy, which was what he wanted to do on the island; he also got to save Shannon. (Their reunion was one of the few "surprises" last night and one of the best scenes EVER, IMO.)

But where was Charlie (Des and Penny's kid - the others got their kids!) and Widmore. He should have gotten to stay with his daughter since Eloise got her son! Alpert had no reason to stay with the others because he wanted to move on with Isabella. Lapidus and Miles were always sort of outsiders, so they didn't need the others, either. (Though I really wanted a scene with Miles near MiB's body to tell them what happened inside the light that made him turn into smoke.)

LoL, for the giant and very literal cork.

I hated the church scene. It felt tacked on to me, like they were obligated to tie in something "religious", but it would have worked better without it.

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Re: Lost - Possible Spoilers!

Post by CindyLou » May 24th, 2010, 7:39 am

I agree with Josin about Shannon. For the past four years I've been frustrated with Sayid's Nadia obsession because wasn't he "in-love" with Shannon. I was glad at least that thread was tied.

Even though the symbolism was a bit heavy and obvious, I liked Jack sitting in the fiery pit and then his baptism with the water. I tend to think he was already dead because how did he get out of it and end up in the jungle? Did Jacob and Smokey go off together?

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Re: Lost - Possible Spoilers!

Post by abc » May 24th, 2010, 8:50 am

Moments I found really touching:

Sawyer and Juliet's reunion (more than the others, for some reason).
Jack's death with Vincent by his side. Vincent coming to be beside him just killed me.
Ben and Hurley telling each other they were a great #1 and #2

Did I miss what the Island really is or are we just accepting what was given? The big hole in the ground plugged by a big stone peg? Just go with hit? Ok.

I feel like I kind of get it and I kind of don't. When I think about it all too much I feel itchy. So I'll just keep reflecting on those nice moments.

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Rick Daley
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Re: Lost - Possible Spoilers!

Post by Rick Daley » May 24th, 2010, 9:31 am

I think they all died when 815 crashed the first time. The first scene in the pilot episode was Jack waking up in purgatory; the final scenes of the crashed plane on the beach make me think the crash itself was real. The island represented God, providing choices for either salvation or damnation. Jacob and the MIB could stage choices for people, but could not force them, i.e. people still had free will, even though they were on a course that had been somewhat pre-defined.

From the beginning many people have speculated that the island was purgatory, but the creators kept denying it. The denials were the red herring.

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Re: Lost - Possible Spoilers!

Post by pdr » May 24th, 2010, 9:44 am

I'm trying to understand the disappointment out there. What was left unexplained that matters?

What's most interesting to me is the alternate world created by their souls or higher consciousness (or whatever). Did anyone notice how each character idealized him/herself?

The con man sees himself as a lawman.
The murderer sees herself as innocent.
The doctor with father issues becomes a successful father.
The man was betrayed by his father betrays his father, then learns to "walk" again.
The one who was cursed and unlucky has only good luck.
The torturer is truly a good man.
The one who kept himself from love for so long becomes the one who unites everyone to those they love.
The evildoer repents.

Is this not what we do with ourselves, imagining on some plane the life we wanted to lead, the person we wanted to be, and the people we wanted to be with?

Call it what you will. I call it brilliant, right to the end.

Paul

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Josin
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Re: Lost - Possible Spoilers!

Post by Josin » May 24th, 2010, 11:29 am

Rick Daley wrote:I think they all died when 815 crashed the first time.
No. That's why Christian said it was all real, and why they all had memories of the island. They didn't die in the crash, they died at separate times and waited for each other in sideways world.

Look closer at that last scene. There's no bodies, no moving engines, but there is the blue tarp from their campsite. They were just completing the circle by bringing them back there.

The writers/show-runners said repeatedly that they absolutely were not all dead on the island.

What was left unexplained that matters?
What exactly the smoke man was. Mom made such a big deal about them going into the cave, but there were bodies from others there all over the floor, so it obviously didn't happen to anyone other than Smokey. That deserved an explanation.

It would have been better if they'd never shown the inside of the cavern at all.

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Re: Lost - Possible Spoilers!

Post by Steppe » May 24th, 2010, 11:42 am

Now that I've read all these comments I'm ready to watch it again
without a gazillion commercials and pre-pre-pre shows.

Josin: (...)
LoL, for the giant and very literal cork.
I hated the church scene. It felt tacked on to me,
like they were obligated to tie in something "religious",
but it would have worked better without it.
--

Thanks for the reminder on Smokie and Jacob's take on the cave
pool, light and inlet outlet function.

MIB and Smokie were riding Jack and John off and on all along
The 815'ers escaping that complication was a catalyst as was said
earlier up above. Their situation being so pathological yet symbolic
of "the struggle" to let go of "the struggle" Locke and Jack fighting
it out to the end was inevitable. I liked that part.

To the giant cork:

Desmond was the only player who was in close proximity when
the cork was removed so his effect could be called their groups zero
point for organization. Whatever got sucked into the light proper was
in him. Both Jack and MIB entered the pool only while it was empty or
full with Jack sort or re-corking the inlet outlet for air/water verses light/fire,
With the cork representing the middle as earth. A ship floating in light.

Its as if the cork had to be removed once and replaced once to back-flush
a system and purge it of contaminates and the parallel conflicts allowed
the system to regain a slowly shifting balance between order and chaos.

Desmond Vs Penny
Over
Jack Vs. John
Over
Jacob Vs. MIB
Over
Air/Water Vs Fire/Light

On classical symbolism the Island definitely qualifies
as Lucifer/Light Bearer/Cup of Life with whoever is trapped as
Smokie being the Satan/Snake/Damned to slither; along the surface
and whoever gets suckered into popping the cork off the bottle of light
is trapped in the role of Devil-Lived backwards in the time flow.
Its cheesy but it works on a lot of plot resolution lines.
Theres an alternate take that goes back to season two with Jack
and Desmond being the prime combatants to unplug and plug the source.
Foreshadowed by their race up and down the "stadium" stairs.
Something that was recovered in the pre-pre-pre show
That Jack was Smokie/Dark all along and Desmond was The Pool/The Light.

I think it was clever writing to get Faraday off stage before the science guys showed up.

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Rick Daley
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Re: Lost - Possible Spoilers!

Post by Rick Daley » May 24th, 2010, 12:24 pm

Josin wrote "No. That's why Christian said it was all real, and why they all had memories of the island. They didn't die in the crash, they died at separate times and waited for each other in sideways world."
I'll concede that point, although with a slightly different rationalization after re-watching the end scene with Jack and his father. Jack asks "Are you real?" and his father says that he is, that it was all real...but in this sense, he is referring equally to the sideways world as the island and what came before it. The island was real in the same sense that the afterlife is real.

However, the smoking gun (upon second viewing) is when Jack's father says "the most important part of your life was the time that you spent with these people." Therefore, that time was part of his life, not after his death.

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Re: Lost - Possible Spoilers!

Post by pdr » May 24th, 2010, 12:34 pm

What was left unexplained that matters?
What exactly the smoke man was. Mom made such a big deal about them going into the cave, but there were bodies from others there all over the floor, so it obviously didn't happen to anyone other than Smokey. That deserved an explanation.
The smoke man was evil incarnate. What we don't know is why it happened to him and not others, including those whose bones were strewn about the place, and Desmond, who did not have the protection of the water-from-the-cup that Jack did. What did smoke man do down there that turned him into evil? Still, I consider that a detail, not necessarily requiring an answer. Just as I wondered why smoke man could not go down to the light and uncork it himself. As in all Sci-Fi, as long as there are rules and they adhere to them, it's OK if we don't always buy it, or understand it.

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FK7
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Re: Lost - Possible Spoilers!

Post by FK7 » May 24th, 2010, 12:38 pm

The smoke man wasn't evil incarnate at all... that's the bullshit Jacob was spoonfed and then went on to feed to others, but he himself had no frickin' idea what was true or not.

Their mother murdered an innocent woman, then Jacob went on to kill his brother in cold blood. The MIB killed a murdered, that's not evil incarnate.

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Josin
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Re: Lost - Possible Spoilers!

Post by Josin » May 24th, 2010, 12:53 pm

FK7 wrote:The smoke man wasn't evil incarnate at all... that's the bullshit Jacob was spoonfed and then went on to feed to others, but he himself had no frickin' idea what was true or not.

Their mother murdered an innocent woman, then Jacob went on to kill his brother in cold blood. The MIB killed a murdered, that's not evil incarnate.
I think Smokey was evil, but not MiB

Mom killed their mother, and torched/murdered MiB's entire village because she was terrified of people corrupting some kind of "purity" she never possessed. If anything, she was the first instance of 'infection" (ala Rousseau) we were shown. The darkness that became Smokey was affecting her, too.

MiB got desperate and killed her in a rage, then jacob tossed him into the water. MiB smashed his head on a rock and floated inside. The EM field stripped him of his immortality, like it did to Jack, and when his body was tossed out, he died of his wound just like Jack did.

Smokey imprinted MiB like he did with Locke. He was a blank consciousness released by Jacob's act of anger.

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Re: Lost - Possible Spoilers!

Post by bcomet » May 24th, 2010, 1:11 pm

I never watched Lost - thought it was like some torturous reality-(like-not)-type of drama.

So I really had no idea what had gone on before, except a lot of anguish and feeling trapped characters.

But we watched the finali last night and although I still didn't have the story, something really weird happened.
I was affected. It made me feel really sad. The realizing you are dead thing just got me.

Now, maybe I have to go back and see the whole six seasons.

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Re: Lost - Possible Spoilers!

Post by mkcbunny » May 24th, 2010, 1:28 pm

Josin wrote:Michael was still stuck on the island as a voice. Walt had no long term connection to the others.
I'm having trouble with the idea that Michael is stuck on the island. Ben, Hurley, Rose, and Bernard presumably all died on the island. Ben did a lot more bad things than Michael (who redeemed himself at the end in life), and Ben made it off. Ben wasn't even forgiven until the sideways/purgatory/waiting world and was able to go there nonetheless. (I think that in addition to wanting to be with Alex, Ben needs her forgiveness to move on.)

We've seen plenty of people in the sideways/purgatory world who died on the island. So, unless the only ones who are "real" are the ones we've been tracking, and the others are just some sort of vision of theirs that they needed to resolve/improve upon their lives to move on, it doesn't make any sense for Michael to be the only one stuck on the island.

I'd have to go back and watch to see who saw Michael as a dead vision and what Michael said. Since Smokey can appear as any dead person on the island, any visions of Michael could have been him, right? Was it Michael who said the voices were the island's dead? I forgot who actually said that, but did they really know what they were saying, and/or were they reliable?

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Josin
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Re: Lost - Possible Spoilers!

Post by Josin » May 24th, 2010, 1:34 pm

I never believed the Michael was a whisper explanation, either, but it's the only one they've given so far. Throughout the show whispers came before the Others, and I assumed Michael was a Smokey incarnation. The whole "don't blow the plane" was a bit of a red herring that led to them losing Sun and Jin and Sayid, so he wasn't exactly helpful.

It makes more sense for Michael and Walt to be together elsewhere.

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