Nathan Bransford - The Forums

I have a WIP that names songs the characters are listening to at various points throughout the novel.
I also list the playlist at the end of the novel.

I'm still not settled with using the songs in the novel.

Would you find that distracting or fun?
Would you prefer a playlist, if there is one, to just be listed at the end of the novel
and alluding to the song's imagery instead of naming specific songs in the story, so it's less distracting?

Have you noticed trends in listing songs inside the story too?

The WIP is a YA.

I can't say I've noticed a current trend, but my favorite novel of all time, The Last Convertible, (published 1978) made frequent references to songs and lyrics, and listed them all at the beginning of the book.

If you go to Amazon and put in the book title you can "take a look inside" the book and you'll find the list of songs on page 5 or 6, right after the dedication page, but before the actual novel starts.It resembles the song listing that scrolls at the end of movie credits.

In this particular book the songs are used to convey the era, the circumstances, and the mood. The novel spans several decades, beginning in a college setting (Harvard) with the world on the brink of entering WWII. The multiple main characters are college students and early song mentions are used when they are out dancing at famous big band night clubs from the time.

Later, when the young men go off to war, songs are used for them to recollect home, and the girls cut a v-record to send off to them (and they ship it from one to the other so they can all hear it), when they return home the songs reflect both nostalgia and the changing times, as they age the songs begin to depict their kids' differences from them, and are there for gatherings or introspective moments.

Since I was not personally familiar with any of the decades covered in the book, I found the mention of these songs, and the frequent listing of snippets of their lyrics, to very much help in creating a sense of these character's lives and the time period in which they lived. When I would hear a big band song somewhere sometimes the lyrics would come back to me and I'd think---OMG, that's the song that made George think of Nancy....or that's what played when Russ and Chris won the dance contest----it definitely added to the book.

I can't speak to what would work for a YA novel today, but I can tell you that I was only 14 the first time I read The Last Convertible, and even then, even unfamiliar with the playlist, I thought all the mention of the music of the time was a great addition to the novel. Hope that helps!

From what I understand you can't put song lyrics in without paying for them.

I think TITLES are ok, but I would check and make sure.

johndavid wrote:From what I understand you can't put song lyrics in without paying for them.

That is my understanding as well, and when it came up for me it was the author's responsibility to secure permissions.

Cheekychook, JohnDavid, Margo,
Thanks.

Cheekychook,
That is such a cool description of naming the songs in a way that works. Thanks for all the detail.

Do you think a playlist in the beginning rather than the end would be more helpful?

JohnDavid, Margo,

Thanks for putting that mention out. I was already aware of that point, but others might not be. I do believe you can legally mention the song titles and artists, but lyric usage requires permissions.

Especially would be interested in how song titles/playlists are being used in current YA.

bcomet wrote:Would you find that distracting or fun?

The WIP is a YA.

I don't read YA, so take my opinion for what it's worth (not being your target audience). I don't mind a character walking into a club and hearing a certain song or listening to it off their own CD. I don't like it too much when the story makes it clear this song is a current top-40 song, or something of the sort, because it immediately dates the story for me. If I'm reading (for instance) an urban fantasy written in 1998, that's recent enough that it can still feel modern to me. If the author does something that dates the novel for me, it distances me from the story.

It's a different matter, of course, if I am intentionally reading historical fiction.

I tend to think the issue of playlist at the beginning vs the end is a trend thing---like how movie credits used to always be at the beginning of the film but now (generally) appear at the end---it's not as crucial for a book, in my opinion, because the info is stationary and you can refer to it later, if you choose to, by going to wherever it appears in the text (whereas at a movie if the credits are at the beginning and when the movie is over you want to know who played a certain role, or who the director was, you're too late---you already missed it and you need to go home and google it). Glad my example was helpful!

I think that unless it is very important to establish time and place in your novel (as in, it is important that the book always feel like it is set in the 1980s midwest or whatever) it is a bad idea to reference any pop culture specifically. If you do, your book will always be dated to the time and place of the that particular reference. And if it is at all not a mainstream reference, you also risk alienating readers who don't understand its significance and pull them out of the reading experience to figure out why it is important or what it is or what sort of music it is.

For example, if it takes six months to a year to get an agent and sell your book, and then another year or so for publication, by the time your book lands in anyones hands, your song reference is going to be at least two years old.

If you don't need it, and pinning your setting to a certain time and place isn't important (or is unwanted) leave it out. If it is important to establish the time and place, then leave it in.

The Fair Use policy is that it is usually OK to quote the equivalent of two sentences or approximately 16-20 words.
This arrangement comes about due to many court battles between artists over songs and melodies.
There are many great songs that evoke an era that are in the public domain because they contain parts of earlier
works already in the public domain.

I know of several works (YA included) that use songs as an atmosphere producers for characters who are music lovers, or in situations where music is an important part of the culture that is used as a setting for the characters as the plot is unfolding its actions and resolutions.

Contemporary characters usually have some sort of soundtrack playing in their head so adding music references as a spice is an artistic device that is
worth pursuing if you can integrate it into the word flow seamlessly. A song that is played at a special event like a graduation wedding or funeral that you wish to include in your manuscript is worth pursuing the artist for permission, most have websites and a paid or volunteer staff to field such occasional requests and redirect you to the publishing rights holder. Sometimes the artist holds all rights and is very open to being celebrated in a novel. It is best to have the work finished in case they want to review the placement of the song to protect their own artistic sensibility regarding the combination of the two works in question.

Key word search:

BMI
ASCAP
SESAC

Mainstream widely known references are best.
I usually pursue songs in the public domain as opposed to getting my heart set on a particular piece.
I think music references can be a potent adjective if the narrative uses them at key moments while the character is attempting to fathom their own position at some complex point in a plot/sub-plot arc. A cool way to tip the reader off as regards the possible range of outcomes.

I think music can be used to show more than timely references---a lot of people are defined by the music they listen to, or only listen to music that moves them---in terms of character portrayal that can be an important tidbit of information. People of all ages, living in all eras can have an affinity for music from other eras, so I don't see it as a pop culture thing that will sound outdated. I know plenty of kids who are in their early teens now who are obsessed with 80s rock, or 50s rockabilly, or whatever floats their boat---if they were characters in a book set in the present, it would go a long way toward describing their personality to tell what their musical preferences are. Likewise, in Twilight we learn that Edward listens to Debussy---it not only suits his temperament and emotional state, it's appropriate because he's 108...even though he's living in modern times as a 17 year old...the fact that Bella likes the same music speaks to her personality as well. There are ways of using specific references that will indeed seem dated (or, out of date) in short order, but there are also ways to use them that will add to the story and will be timely to the characters (and in turn will stay timely in regard to the book). I think of it as going over to someone's house for the first time and perusing their cd collection (or record collection, depending on the person)---what's in there is relevant to getting to know them, regardless of how old the items in the collection are.

My WIP is a post, post, post, apocalyptic novel set in Wales. I've brought back a lot of middle-ages type living conditions for the characters, but one of the things that really tickled me when I wrote it was inserting something modern like a song (modern today, but old, old, old during the time of my novel). There is a scene at an inn where the local bard/musician is playing October by U2 on the harp -- a song about the rise and fall of kingdoms. I have no idea if this will make it through my final edit, it's probably too obscure a reference, but Bono should be happy that someone, at least, thinks his music will survive the next six hundred years. :P

One problem I see with using songs in a book is if the reader has never heard of the song, the "mood" is never really set.

I doubt many people would stop reading and go onto the iTunes store to buy a song mentioned in the book they are reading.

Even so, I did use a brief refrence to a musical group in my novel. It helps set the mood if you know the group. But even if you don't know them I think the scene still works.

My creative writing professor wanted to use the lyrics from a Pink Floyd song in a book he evetually had published. He found out it would cost THOSANDS (maybe tens of thousands) of dollars to do so. He decided it wasn't that important!

I appreciate all the comments.

I have noticed quite a few authors who list their playlists for their novels on their websites, though not always in their books, but heard that more are doing that and/or considering adding that as an appendix. I have even heard some discussion regarding possibly including a CD with the book (although, unless it was original music by the author or a band that wanted to work with the book, that might be tricky and expensive).

One of the considerations I have, in placing a reference to a musical score in a work, is to try to use it, but not make it necessary to be familiar with, i.e. the story has to work without the song being known or heard and the title has to suggest imagery that makes sense or that has an accompanying description.

Then the song (via the playlist) could be a sort of extra ingredient during or after reading.

This is the first piece I've written that has this element. In other projects, I created characters who were musicians who wrote lyrics. (The reader would have to imagine the music.)

Funny. My husband is reading a Pynchon novel to me that has songs in it and when he gets to those parts, he sings the lyrics (making up his own tunes for them).

A good book to check out that uses music well is Amy & Roger's Epic Detour. It's an awesome book, but I love how the playlists are incorporated. I did go and download a lot of songs from the book, found bands I'd never heard of that are now some of my favorites, and it worked.

Hey Sommer, thanks for the reference. I'll go check that out!