Narrative Point of View, Voice, Distance

The writing process, writing advice, and updates on your work in progress
Post Reply
User avatar
polymath
Posts: 1821
Joined: December 8th, 2009, 11:22 am
Location: Babel
Contact:

Narrative Point of View, Voice, Distance

Post by polymath » June 29th, 2010, 2:44 pm

As pertains to narrative voice and narrative distance, narrative point of view for me is who's reporting a narrative.
  • What's the narrative point of view's standing in time, location, and situation proximity to a narrative's personas and events.
  • What's the narrative point of view's judgemental attitude toward a narrative's topics and subjects.
  • What's the narrative point of view's tone, ie., subjective/unreliable/biased or objective/reliable/unbiased, falling along a continuum of tone possibilities.
I'm rereading Stephen Crane's The Red Badge of Courage, 1895, comparing and contrasting it with my writing, others' published works and finished works offered for commentary or publishing.

Crane's novel opens and largely stays in a formal register voice and expresses objective commentary. It reads like authorial reporting, a third remove from the unfolding narrative's events and focal viewpoint character's perceptions and cognitions. Crane's body of writing voice largely follows that mannerism. He transitions into narrator reporting and narrator reporting of viewpoint character perceptions and cognitions, but expresses objective commentary while doing so, and consequently, distances close viewpoint character rapport. I am not at anytime in close rapport with Henry. I'm solely aligned with Crane's authorial presence throughout the novel.

I first read the novel in high school. It was a chore then. I didn't understand what all the acclaiming hoopla was about. I had hunches, but they went unreconciled for years. The narrative distance is too remote to suit my tastes. Crane holds me at the end of a ten-foot pole. Perhaps, I'd thought, it's an authorial choice to keep me from close rapport with Henry for the sake of the gruesomeness of the novel. But it's not apparent to me it's a conscious choice the way it is in Truman Capote's true crime thriller In Cold Blood, 1966.

Bertolt Brecht introduced a phenomena known in some writing consensuses' shorthand as the Brechtian Alienation Effect.
Wikipedia: Bertolt Brecht; an early to mid Twentieth century East German playwright, poet, and director.
"Brecht created an influential theory of theatre—the epic theatre—that proposed that a play should not cause the spectator to identify emotionally with the characters or action before him or her, but should instead provoke rational self-reflection and a critical view of the action on the stage. Brecht thought that the experience of a climactic catharsis of emotion left an audience complacent. Instead, he wanted his audiences to adopt a critical perspective in order to recognise social injustice and exploitation and to be moved to go forth from the theatre and effect change in the world outside. For this purpose, Brecht employed the use of techniques that remind the spectator that the play is a representation of reality and not reality itself. By highlighting the constructed nature of the theatrical event, Brecht hoped to communicate that the audience's reality was equally constructed and, as such, was changeable.

"One of Brecht's most important principles was what he called the Verfremdungseffekt (translated as "defamiliarization effect", "distancing effect", or "estrangement effect", and often mistranslated as "alienation effect"). This involved, Brecht wrote, "stripping the event of its self-evident, familiar, obvious quality and creating a sense of astonishment and curiosity about them". To this end, Brecht employed techniques such as the actor's direct address to the audience, harsh and bright stage lighting, the use of songs to interrupt the action, explanatory placards, and, in rehearsals, the transposition of text to the third person or past tense, and speaking the stage directions out loud."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertolt_Brecht

Okay. So I understand now for my own benefit what Crane does. "He wanted his audiences to adopt a critical perspective in order to recognise social injustice and exploitation and to be moved to go forth from the theatre and effect change in the world outside."

I can read narratives and appreciate them without enjoying them. Still, my preferred narrative points of view and narrative voices build close rapport with viewpoint characters. Reading certainly. I'm decidely in the Pinteresque*** immersion effect camp. I'm working on it for writing.

*** Coined for Harold Pinter, a Twentieth century British playwright, actor, poet, and Nobel laureate known for deeply engaging creative works. Pinter and Brecht are like night and day regarding audience rapport.
Spread the love of written word.

User avatar
Mira
Posts: 1354
Joined: December 7th, 2009, 9:59 am
Contact:

Re: Narrative Point of View, Voice, Distance

Post by Mira » June 30th, 2010, 2:47 pm

I agree with you, Polymath. A book that holds the reader at arm's length for an intellectual discouse feels cold and unfriendly to me. I feel lonely reading those types of books.

I much prefer books where I identify with the character and learn along with them. That's a more visceral experience for me - I sink into the world and emerge from it with something in hand. That's the best type of book for me.

But I would guess there are some people who are solely comfortable in the intellectual realm. And/or others who are deeply uncomfortable in the emotional realm. They might prefer a different type of book than I do. I also wonder if there is value in intellectual explorations without emotional contact - could that type of book move into different places of the mind than one with emotional connection? I don't know, but I do know it wouldn't appeal to me as a reader. Might still have value, though......

Interesting discussion!

User avatar
polymath
Posts: 1821
Joined: December 8th, 2009, 11:22 am
Location: Babel
Contact:

Re: Narrative Point of View, Voice, Distance

Post by polymath » June 30th, 2010, 4:38 pm

I can't imagine a narrative without some kind of emotional payoff. Something as subtle as figuring out a simple puzzle or a riddle is emotionally rewarding. I've read a few complex puzzles posing as narratives. Some I've figured out to my satisfaction. I've got a few on my shelf I'm still processing. Peter Matthiesson's Far Tortuga, 1975, for example. But I'm getting a handle on it by investigating more of his works and life story and from appreciating Brecht's Verfremdungseffek concept. At least the process is intellectually stimulating if not emotionally stimulating yet. I spent eons gaining a fully satisfying appreciation of Hemingway's writing. Joyce, Lawrence, Nabokov, Chekhov.
Spread the love of written word.

GeeGee55
Posts: 173
Joined: February 19th, 2010, 11:01 pm
Contact:

Re: Narrative Point of View, Voice, Distance

Post by GeeGee55 » June 30th, 2010, 6:01 pm

I have struggled with the issue of narrative distance, so this is very interesting to me. It's hard to execute the change from a more distant narrator into the close third person and do it well and do it smoothly and once you have that skill, it's hard to recognize when and where in the story to use each one. I tend to write my first draft in very close third or even first person because I am identifying emotionally with the character, but that more distant voice is necessary sometimes in order to give information or provide setting or some other technical reasons.
I have a friend who is very intellectual, that's her approach to life and to writing. Books that don't have some intellectual payoff bore her. I'm the opposite; I want the emotional payoff. I want to experience what the character is experiencing and learn in that way. Neither is wrong, just different.
Thanks, Polymath and Mira, for your insights.

User avatar
polymath
Posts: 1821
Joined: December 8th, 2009, 11:22 am
Location: Babel
Contact:

Re: Narrative Point of View, Voice, Distance

Post by polymath » June 30th, 2010, 7:01 pm

Pure gold, GeeGee55. "Intellectual payoff," I love it. It's what I was and have been reaching for and not getting my hands around.

Writing acquaintances have asked me what I think distinguishes literary fiction from convention-based fiction. I've been to far from understanding it to reply succinctly and meaningfully. I've encountered lots of confusing topical discussions, not getting much closer than it's something vaguely distinguishably different, many private agendas promoting self-serving points of view clouding the issue as well.

Literary fiction could be categorized as literature having intellectual payoffs from unraveling low-concept premises' contributions to a narrative's high concepts and emotional appeal. Melding emotional payoff and intellectual payoff may come close to unifying the disparate paths of aesthetically appealing and popularly appealing literature tracks.

Let's see; the four boxes of life activities for healthy living: physical stimulation, emotional stimulation, recreational stimulation, and intellectual stimulation. Athough, of course, they can overlap. Social stimulation can include all four, for instance.

If we're not careful, we might stumble onto the meaning of life too.
Spread the love of written word.

User avatar
wilderness
Posts: 541
Joined: February 21st, 2010, 6:25 pm
Contact:

Re: Narrative Point of View, Voice, Distance

Post by wilderness » July 1st, 2010, 4:16 pm

polymath wrote: If we're not careful, we might stumble onto the meaning of life too.
It's 42.

GeeGee55 -- That's a very good point about intellectual versus emotional payoff. I'm with you, I'm more interested in the emotional payoff, in both my writing and reading. As a result, I write first person and try to keep the narrative distance very close. I want the reader to be in the character's head.

Steppe
Posts: 122
Joined: February 12th, 2010, 7:34 pm
Contact:

Re: Narrative Point of View, Voice, Distance

Post by Steppe » July 5th, 2010, 9:10 am

Hopefully a simplistic response won't offend anyone *emotionally*.

In a complex story of group politics and warfare where no character
is going to surface as the untarnished noble hero eternally aligned with
the forces of good who miraculously never experiences so much as a head cold
the first person narrative is very satisfying; sort of like crack cocaine.

But...
Two days later your back at the Barnes and Nobles shaking and twitching.

I read about twenty books a year and I expect ten thousand dollars of value
for the two to five days it takes me to truly absorb the book and its narratives
over all world view. I don't read for kicks, I read for knowledge or complex immersion
into the political struggles of a group of people enduring and surviving some great struggle.

I read WAR AND PEACE and remember every plot twist to this day 30 years later.
Occasionally I'll get high on books (meaningless distraction) and I do enjoy first
person narrative. Most books these days seem like they were written by a robot
programmed to find an agent and publisher before hitting the shelfs, sitting around
for a while and then being returned as unwanted.

Might latest spoof for a comedy blog was a strong female wizardess who went on a killing
rampage disgracing her secret order by poisoning a bunch of strong female vampires with
their own blood.

Publishing is mass media.
Mass media is dying a slow agonizing Shakespearean death in public.

Conversely: Moby Dick was written as a first person narrative and fulfills all
the criteria I set forth for above; (complex immersion
into the political struggles of a group of people enduring and surviving some great struggle.)

So go figure.
I like an authoritative narrator who lets me see into each characters head so i can
try to guess which way they are going to break out when the struggle is defined
and the sides are set and the strength and courage of the good, the bad, and the ugly is tested.

I think this question shall be argued eternally.
Hell, whoops excuse me. HECK! people are still arguing whether Gods an individual or a group.

I actually put a greek style chorus in a story recently to good effect. Where does that fit in.
I give up...

User avatar
J. T. SHEA
Moderator
Posts: 509
Joined: May 20th, 2010, 1:55 pm
Location: IRELAND
Contact:

Re: Narrative Point of View, Voice, Distance

Post by J. T. SHEA » July 5th, 2010, 3:34 pm

I suspect the point where many readers turn to self-consciously 'literary' fiction is where I turn to non-fiction. I am more likely to read a history of the Napoleonic Wars than WAR AND PEACE. But I consider Polymath's quest to be a worthy one.

Wilderness, you must be a conservative. The meaning of life was changed from 42 to 43 years ago.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests