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I have nothing to comment on this subject other than that sounds so cool, sierramcconnell!!sierramcconnell wrote:This is why, when I write the second book, Marguerite -who is in love with an incubi- is going on a mission not because she's been pre-ordaned to, but because she'll be damned if her beloved is going to go hiding himself away in Hell because he's afraid his Lord will destroy them both.
Thanks! I just hope I can pull it off in a wonderfully awesome way! XD Margie is a character I can't wait to get into. She's so wonderfully spunky and yet refined. One of those people who border that fine line I love to tread. Poor Sariel, her traveling partner, is going to get into so much trouble all the time...dios4vida wrote:I have nothing to comment on this subject other than that sounds so cool, sierramcconnell!!sierramcconnell wrote:This is why, when I write the second book, Marguerite -who is in love with an incubi- is going on a mission not because she's been pre-ordaned to, but because she'll be damned if her beloved is going to go hiding himself away in Hell because he's afraid his Lord will destroy them both.
I completely agree with you abc, and I hope that what I said isn't misunderstood. Most of my professional life is devoted to helping people face and deal with their feelings. Being able to accept and work through your emotions is a wonderful strength - I believe it's probably one of the most important skills someone can develop.abc wrote:I don't think being emotional should be equated with weakness.
I think you're right about this, Mira. 95% of what I read is YA, and I've been noticing that over-emotional girls are being rescued almost exclusively by boys who then become the only thing that keeps their head on straight. Girls, specifically teenage girls, are made up almost entirely of emotions and lip gloss (I'm joking, sort of) so it's not that I don't want the emotions and dramas of a teenage girl's life to be front and center, I think there's something here about needing girls to learn to stand on their own two feet too. Can we have an awesome boy in the picture AND some healthy personal growth? Can't girls and boys save each other?Mira wrote:
But my point - that I think many YA books are reinforcing the idea that women are over-emotional and/or need rescuing - well, I still think that!
I'm really happy this is your experience, sincerely. As someone who has heard diferently from the domestic violence victims (including teenagers) I have counseled, I can tell you the concerns here are valid. Also consider, assuming you're reading Nathan's forum as someone who wants to be a writer, that people (like characters) often have conflicts between conscious and subconscious desires. It doesn't matter at all whether anyone uses the term role model. We all choose them, consciously or subconsciously.LilaSwann wrote: My points:
1. No one cares about being "saved" because we're not stupid.
2. No one considers Bella Swan to be a role model. Get real. I don't think I've heard the word "role model" in years.
3. In a world where boys are plain awful to us on a daily basis, Edward Cullen and Jacob Black are appealing. Period.
I'm 18, I'm a freshman in college, I read all of the Twilight books, and I write YA very similar to what you mentioned. The similarities, though, end there. I did not enjoy the Twilight books.LilaSwann wrote:I'm eighteen, I'm a senior in high school, and I read the first three Twilight books (Twilight, New Moon, and Eclipse) when I was fifteen (and Breaking Dawn at sixteen). I write YA (Dystopian/Fantasy/Romance), and I enjoyed the Twilight books.
Just because you've never met a teenage girl who says that she wants her own Edward Cullen doesn't mean that they don't exist--or that they aren't thinking it. I'll admit this: Edward is an attractive boyfriend to have. He takes care of all of Bella's wants and needs, he wants to protect her, and he's (apparently) Greek-god attractive. HOWEVER, he's also possessive, isolating, sometimes violent, and stalker-esque. These are just a few of the signs of a potential abusive relationship, and that's what everyone in this thread has been protesting. The Twilight books have been immensely popular, and with a protagonist like Bella (who has so little personality that nearly every girl/woman can relate in some way) and a love interest like Edward (who like I mentioned, typifies an unhealthy relationship), people worry that readers (especially teenage girls) are getting the wrong message about what's acceptable in a relationship.LilaSwann wrote:Again and again and again throughout this thread (I read every single post), people have referenced Bella as a bad role model because she can't "save herself" and has to fight on the sidelines and engages in an "abusive domineering relationship."
I'm sorry, but what? I've never met a single teenage girl who voiced anything even close to, "I want my own Edward Cullen so I can be saved."
Of course, the Twilight world is fictional. But something doesn't have to be real to be harmful. If you flipped the genders around, I think you'd have a story that was entirely more interesting--a boy constantly being saved by a girl would have to confront gender expectations and decide if he could handle it. Bella constantly needing saving, however, only reinforces the stereotype that girls are weaker--never mind there being vampires involved. Even when she was attacked in the alleyway in Twilight, Bella never really tried to save herself. (And in that instance, her attackers were all human.) I would've gained so much more respect for her as a character if she had at least made an attempt at fighting back.LilaSwann wrote:No teenager actually needs saving in the Twilight sense. Bella is a teenage girl living among vampires/werewolves (which, by the way...aren't real) and she frequently faces the repercussions of being a mortal surrounded by immortals. She only needs "saving" because of vampires - and even if she was a BOY, she didn't have any hope of competing. Flip the genders around and, this time, the girl would be the one constantly saving the boy. Meyer isn't anti-feminist (or pro-weak female protags), she's simply pro-vampire. Alice, Esme, Rosalie, Victoria, and Jane are all 100x stronger than Bella because they're vampires.
You're generalizing here. I think it's perfectly possible that someone already in an abusive relationship would pick up one of the books and see traces of their own life in Bella and Edward's dynamic--and conclude, probably subconsciously, that this meant that their own relationship was fine. THIS is what many people think is not okay about the books.LilaSwann wrote:No one reads the Twilight books and wants to be Bella Swan because he or she needs saving. No one reads the Twilight books and wants to be Bella Swan because he or she wants an abusive relationship.
I don't know who you're friends with, but find new ones. I have a wonderful, caring boyfriend who would probably drop his phone in surprise if I ever sent him an inappropriate picture--not to mention several wonderful, caring boy friends who would do the same. I won't disagree that some boys are cruel--but some girls are too. It isn't a sex-exclusive trait, nor is it nearly as dominant as you seem to think.LilaSwann wrote:Teenage girls read the Twilight books and want to be Bella Swan (or want to date Edward Cullen/Jacob Black) because they're the only "teenage" male examples we're presented with that actually care. In our world, boys are cruel. In our world, boyfriends demand that we send inappropriate pictures or else we'll get dumped. In our world, we aren't "desired" or "wanted" by the opposite sex unless we dress in ways that we don't necessarily want to. In our world, boys either laugh at us (if we don't match their stereotypical female "mold") or they objectify us (if we do meet that mold).
A few pages back, someone said (and I'm paraphrasing) that she wants to scream from the rooftops, "Hey! Your boyfriend will still be there after you're done reading/playing soccer/writing/whatever." I don't know what high school you went to (or how long ago it was), but let me assure you...that's not the way it is now.
This is the biggest issue I have with your entire response. Yes, I want someone to care about me--thankfully, I have a supportive family, several circles of friends, my puppy, my boyfriend, my teachers, the list goes on--but that is far from the only thing I want. I want to pass my calculus midterm. I want to get the interview for a new job. I want to finish NaNoWriMo next month. I want to see my friends during Thanksgiving. I want to declare a minor in English. I want to graduate from college with high honors. I want to get a good job. I want to be happy.LilaSwann wrote:All teenage girls WANT is for someone to genuinely care about them.
Your generalizations seem to stem from some bad experience(s), so let me tell you: Boys grow up. Girls do, too. My high school days weren't awful, just sometimes awkward. College forces people to expand out of their comfort zone, to make new friends, so pretty much everyone is nice at first--and if they aren't, well, they don't make any friends!LilaSwann wrote:And in our awful high school days, there are very few boys who do. (There are some, I'm dating one of them. But he gets made fun of because I'm a "nerd." And there are lots of nice guys who are simply too besotted with the popular girls who engage in behaviors that I referenced above to notice the nice girl beside them.) Edward Cullen cares enough about Bella to notice her moods, to be upset when she's hurt, to care about her feelings, to be with her all the time, to protect her. Edward Cullen doesn't want Bella to send him pictures of herself on a cell phone. He cares about HER, about her personality, her soul, her intelligence. He talks to her about things like music. He never makes fun of her. He never objectifies her.
Right now, in my world, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
There are plenty of people who need to be saved (from abusive relationships, domestic violence, absent parents, suicidal thoughts...) and this book does a wonderful job telling them that they don't actually need help! That their relationships are perfectly normal--hey, there's even a wildly popular series about it! Stupidity has nothing to do with it.LilaSwann wrote:My points:
1. No one cares about being "saved" because we're not stupid.
No matter what you consider Bella, you have to remember that young girls read this series--I'm talking 8, 9, 10 year olds. Whether we like it or not, their perspectives on the world are shaped by what they see and what they read--and in this case it's Twilight. Whether you call them "role models" or not (and I certainly hear the word quite often), you can't deny that they exist.LilaSwann wrote:2. No one considers Bella Swan to be a role model. Get real. I don't think I've heard the word "role model" in years.
They shouldn't be. Or at least, they shouldn't be appealing because they're perfect--no one's perfect, and you're setting yourself up for disappointment if you expect them to be.LilaSwann wrote:3. In a world where boys are plain awful to us on a daily basis, Edward Cullen and Jacob Black are appealing. Period.
I would first like to say that I sincerely feel for anyone who has ever been touched by domestic violence, or anyone who has witnessed domestic violence firsthand. I recognize that the experience is traumatic, horrible, and that no one should ever have to face such a heartbreaking situation. Please note that anything I say in defense of Twilight does not apply to my beliefs towards domestic abuse victims. I wholeheartedly believe that domestic abuse is wrong and my thoughts and prayers are with anyone who faces it.Margo wrote: As someone who has heard diferently from the domestic violence victims (including teenagers) I have counseled, I can tell you the concerns here are valid.
Sure, that's totally legitimate. But the thing is, no (real) teenage guy likes Bella Swan. They don't even find her attractive in the movies. If I (or any of my girl friends) are going to pick a role model to help us win guys, we're going to pick movie stars. I just don't understand why Bella Swan is a role model, at all. Meyer has stated that Bella's admirers from when she first arrives in Forks are simply suffering from "new toy syndrome." That's why Edward is so remarkable - he fell in love with the ordinary girl, perfectly normal in every way. I spent months walking through the hallways wishing someone would notice me...and to a high schooler, that's powerful.Margo wrote:Also consider, assuming you're reading Nathan's forum as someone who wants to be a writer, that people (like characters) often have conflicts between conscious and subconscious desires. It doesn't matter at all whether anyone uses the term role model. We all choose them, consciously or subconsciously.
It seems like the hottest guys get away with the most disrespectful behavior, and there are certain girls who define their type as "jerks" because "they're hot." As more and more girls stopped "settling", it started shifting the dynamic. I would imagine that years ago (please keep in mind that I don't know if this is true or not - just speculation), women often said, "Fine. Go find someone else." And boys got the hint, grew up, and respected them. But these days, if any of us said, "Fine. Go find someone else," they can, will, and do. I have a different mindset, and I count myself lucky to have a boyfriend who respects me. But it hurts my feelings whenever his popular friends tease me -- or worse, tease him ABOUT me. Sometimes, it seems easier to simply act like a whore (but I'd never have the guts to do it, so).sierramcconnell wrote: Women have turned themselves into a pile of objects. Because they want to be wanted. They stopped standing up for themselves. It's a sad, sorry case that if you aren't part of that norm you get teased for being different. If you aren't a whore, you're one of the weird ones.
Oh, you've misunderstood me! I've met plenty of girls who want their own Edward Cullen. Like you said, he's appealing. I said something different - that no one wants their own Edward Cullen because they need protection.emmyloowho wrote: Just because you've never met a teenage girl who says that she wants her own Edward Cullen doesn't mean that they don't exist--or that they aren't thinking it.
Isolating? I said above that Edward only keeps her from "dangerous" people, and even then, he eventually allowed Bella to visit once he got used to the idea. I'll need examples of possessive, violent, or stalker-esque.emmyloowho wrote:HOWEVER, he's also possessive, isolating, sometimes violent, and stalker-esque.
Yes, she did. She thought about the defensive techniques she'd learned and was prepared to fight, but then Edward swooped in and saved her. (Did she need saving in that situation? I'd say so. One teenage girl against, what was it, five (?) men who were larger and stronger than her?)emmyloowho wrote:Even when she was attacked in the alleyway in Twilight, Bella never really tried to save herself. (And in that instance, her attackers were all human.) I would've gained so much more respect for her as a character if she had at least made an attempt at fighting back.
Sure, I agree. But there are lots of messages throughout lots of books that condone that. I think it's ludicrous to criticize Meyer for something that she never intended. I'm actually not a Twihard. I'm Team Nobody and I've only read the book once. But the overwhelming criticism for Meyer about issues like THIS (perpetuating domestic abuse) really irks me. It terrifies me that maybe, somehow, I've included some underlying "message" that I never intended to give. I write YA Dystopian, which involves a futuristic Communist/totalitarian society. Sometimes I wonder if I created a world dark enough, and I frequently worry that I might get criticized for being pro-Communist (if it ever gets published). It's ludicrous that a YA commercial fiction author should actually have to worry about these things. There's no way Meyer sat down and said, "I'm going to write a book about vampires and it's going to be this metaphor for domestic abuse because I like domestic abuse." No way! You guys are reading way too much into a story that was meant to be light fluff. I'm literally terrified that 1) my book will be published and 2) I'll get torn to pieces because of some unintentional "message" that someone pulled out of my story.emmyloowho wrote:I think it's perfectly possible that someone already in an abusive relationship would pick up one of the books and see traces of their own life in Bella and Edward's dynamic--and conclude, probably subconsciously, that this meant that their own relationship was fine. THIS is what many people think is not okay about the books.
These people aren't my friends. I clearly designated myself as the "nerd" who gets alienated because I choose not to. And sure, a clever costume might get you more attention, but I doubt all the boys wanted to hook up with Urkel (which pertains to our conversation - people wanting to be like Bella because that will lead to their own Edward Cullen...). Oh, and since you're around my age, I'd like to ask. What was the size of your graduating class? Mine has only 70 people, so maybe that's the problem - my world is (much) smaller than the majority of people. I'm hoping that when I go to college, I'll meet like-minded people, because I sure haven't found any since kindergarten.emmyloowho wrote:I don't know who you're friends with, but find new ones.
You misunderstood me here, but it's entirely my fault because I didn't phrase that as well as I intended. I didn't mean that all girls want is for a boy to want them. That's simplistic and obviously not true. Perhaps a better statement would be, "Teenage girls find Edward Cullen/Jacob Black attractive because they both care about Bella Swan more deeply than the vast majority of teenage boys...put together...care about us." We want guys to care about us. Care about us deeply. Listen to what we say. To mean what they say to us. Just seriously care. And if you aren't capable of caring deeply, just don't start in on a relationship. Grow up first. Edward is always going to be likable (even if he is rather ugly in the movies) because he is so devoted and so simply good to the core. He's not perfect. He makes a lot of mistakes concerning Bella because he simply cares so much. That level of caring and that level of devotion and that level of intensity is hard not to find appealing.emmyloowho wrote:This is the biggest issue I have with your entire response.LilaSwann wrote:All teenage girls WANT is for someone to genuinely care about them.
Actually, the point of feminism is to allow Bella to choose. By saying that her choices - and her desires - are weak, you're actually being anti-feminist, but that's neither here nor there. I refuse to criticize her for many things, simply because I consider myself to be so much like Bella (which is probably why I'm so vehement over defending her). My protagonist seems to fit the general "strong heroine" mold that everyone here has described, but my own protagonist is so utterly different from me. If I could skip college, get married, and have babies ASAP - I'd be psyched. Totally, completely psyched. I saw a few pages back that someone criticized Bella for being a "housewife," which is offensive, because I am a teenager that adores cleaning, cooking, baking, etc. To me, I see the world much like Bella does. And before we stereotype or brush my comments off as simply ignorant, no, I understand that there are other options. I have other options. I'm applying to Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and Duke. I'm surrounded by career-oriented women, my Mom is the "breadwinner" in my family, and I understand the "other options." I get it. But that's just not what I want...and is that so bad? I can't stand it when people roll their eyes and refuse to accept that I might genuinely want the "traditional" lifestyle. But I do, and Bella does, so people -- and especially women -- should respect those choices. Perhaps that's not for you. And that's great! But you shouldn't criticize Bella -- or the women like her -- for those choices. If anything, she should be commended for knowing exactly what she wants, going after it, fighting for it, and finally achieving it. If we substituted Edward for a mega-watt career, people would be singing Bella's praises. She's allowed to want whatever she wants.emmyloowho wrote:The only thing Bella seems to want is Edward. From a writer's point of view, that makes her a very boring character--even in a romance, I'm expecting the protagonist to have at least a few other motivations. She wants to protect Charlie and Renee? Sure, but only if she gets to leave them forever and lets them think she's dead so that she can be with Edward. (And emotional pain, as Bella can attest, is often worse than physical pain.) She wants to be friends with Jacob? Yeah, but only if she can be with Edward. She defines herself through him, and I thought feminism was supposed to have put a stop to that.
Sure, but the book is YA. The book is geared towards people around Bella's age (seventeen, a junior in high school) or younger. People who are dealing with the very cruel boys and girls that we both agree upon.emmyloowho wrote:Boys grow up. Girls do, too. My high school days weren't awful, just sometimes awkward. College forces people to expand out of their comfort zone, to make new friends, so pretty much everyone is nice at first--and if they aren't, well, they don't make any friends!
I was strictly speaking about being "saved in the Twilight sense," which I word-for-word said within my post.emmyloowho wrote:There are plenty of people who need to be saved (from abusive relationships, domestic violence, absent parents, suicidal thoughts...) and this book does a wonderful job telling them that they don't actually need help!
8, 9, 10 year olds are (most likely) not aware of what it's like to be in any sort of relationship, much less an abusive one (and yes, I know there are exceptions, but I'm talking general public). And none of them are reading for deeper meanings and hidden "signs" that point to abusive relationships.emmyloowho wrote:I'm talking 8, 9, 10 year olds. Whether we like it or not, their perspectives on the world are shaped by what they see and what they read--and in this case it's Twilight. Whether you call them "role models" or not (and I certainly hear the word quite often), you can't deny that they exist.
They're not perfect, but they are "more perfect" than the boys around me (and, I'm assuming, around other teen girls as well). It's escapist chick-lit. No one ever heralded it as literary. No one who is a true Twihard reads deeply into it. My entire point - and my entire irritation with those who bash on the books - is because the critics literally put more time and effort into crafting their argument against Twilight than any of the fans did upon reading it. This isn't Harry Potter, where Potterheads waited for YEARS, carefully cultivating theories and arguments (all backed up with quotes), wrote books about the series, etc. etc. etc. No. It's just not.emmyloowho wrote:They shouldn't be. Or at least, they shouldn't be appealing because they're perfect--no one's perfect, and you're setting yourself up for disappointment if you expect them to be.
emmyloowho wrote:If you flipped the genders around, I think you'd have a story that was entirely more interesting--a boy constantly being saved by a girl would have to confront gender expectations and decide if he could handle it.
You might consider that terrible writing, but I consider it absolutely brilliant. By refusing to make Bella an in-your-face character (which I agree, that she's not -- she's merely a filter for the storyline and the two real main characters, Edward and Jacob) Meyer created herself a bestseller. The books aren't popular because people love Edward & Bella like they love Romeo & Juliet. People love Twilight because they fell in love with Edward/Jacob, too. I remember reading the books as a young, hormone-riddled fifteen-year-old and feeling as genuinely giddy as though my crush had smiled at me in the cafeteria. Her writing might be mediocre, but Meyer created a crush-esque feeling in millions of girls (and Twilight Moms), and that's why they sell. That's why there are millions of people who flock to the theaters to watch the movies with Team Edward and Team Jacob shirts on - these women are genuinely in love with her characters, because they stepped into Bella's shoes through the book. Meyer has stated multiple times that the first draft of Twilight allowed Bella to be a more central character, but that her editor cut any description of her so that the reader was better able to "step into Bella's shoes." It was a brilliant move. I've argued many, many times that Twilight never would have been as successful as it currently is if Meyer had written it in 3rd person. It's one (of many) reasons I switched my book from 3rd to 1st.emmyloowho wrote:By creating this "empty shell," the character becomes less of a person and more of something a female reader can put on and wear." I wasn't cheering for Bella as a character; I barely even remember her as a character.