Nathan Bransford - The Forums

Margo wrote:BS, Guardian. Many many many novels have free chapter downloads available that do allow people to sample work. Samples are available on author websites and on Amazon and on blogs during blog tours. These are the equivalent of movie trailers.

This is the reason why I mentioned games and movies in the first place. Comparing to these the piracy of novels is very small, but it's also existing. But for example... there are regional products with stupid DRMs (The sample can't be read anywhere, just in a specific region.). Or publisher decisions... sorry, but the next episode will be available only in a different language (It's happened with few novels. For example the first three episodes of my favorite series was published in English, (Only two was published in Hungarian, also because of the publisher), then the rest seven was published for a long time only in Russian. And the author is American.).

But if you're going to ask someone who ever downloaded anything illegally, why he / she downloaded it... do you know what the answer will be? #1: the publisher is not releasing it in my country and I can't buy it. #2: I've been cheated by the publisher few times in the past and I rather test the product first, before I would buy it.

Just try it. Ask around. I did this, because I was curious why people are doing this. And in most cases, the reason is not the lack of money. The people just hate being cheated or restricted by some companies whose are believing they can do anything with the people.

And even if they were not available, the answer is theft? No, the answer is to stop purchasing from that supplier. That will either make them change their behavior or put them out of business...without resorting to theft.

I agree with this (This is why I have the mentioned black list.). But companies are never changing their behavior, unless the people are showing them, not they're in charge. The companies should be for the audience and not the audience should be for the companies. But until the companies are believing the audience is for them, and the people must like everything what they're doing, you can't change this.

sierramcconnell wrote:Actually, there is one instance in which companies are forcing people to steal.

Not allowing something to be available for sell.

Back when I was into manga and anime, and it wasn't available over in America, it was hard for people to get it here. So people put it up for download.

Really? That's the only way to get it? There was no postal service? No friends from manga fan sites who could buy it and send it to you? No ebay?

I've had friends with manga here in the States since the mid 1980's. There was always a friend who knew someone who knew someone who could get something shipped back to the States. I had a cousin stationed in Japan. I had male relatives in the military who docked in Japan. I had a penpal in Japan. I had a best friend with an exchange student from japan living with them. I knew other people who were in the same position. Of course, it wasn't fast and convenient and free, which is really what illegal downloads are all about.

Guardian wrote:But if you're going to ask someone who ever downloaded anything illegally, why he / she downloaded it... do you know what the answer will be? #1: the publisher is not releasing it in my country and I can't buy it. #2: I've been cheated by the publisher few times in the past and I rather test the product first, before I would buy it.

Did you also ask them if they had bothered to organize their friends to write letters to the company telling the company they all want to buy the product but it needs to be in this language and distributed in this place? Cuz these are all evil greedy companies out for money, right? But here they have sooooo many people who want their product and can't buy it, yet the greedy company doesn't want all that money?

I suspect no such efforts were made, because businesses tend to jump at easy money.

Note also that the original blog post by the author Saundra Mitchell mentioned that the reader who raved about her book after illegally downloading it tried to defend herself by saying it wasn't available in her area...but it was.

I should also mention, since we've started talking about movies and video games...one word...rental. Redbox movies are $1. A membership to a video game rental club costs less than $10 a month. One has the slogan "Never buy another bad game."

No stealing necessary.

Margo wrote:Did you also ask them if they had bothered to organize their friends to write letters to the company telling the company they all want to buy the product but it needs to be in this language and distributed in this place? Cuz these are all evil greedy companies out for money, right? But here they have sooooo many people who want their product and can't buy it, yet the greedy company doesn't want all that money?

People are not that stupid and yes, they used to write for companies to ask why they're restricted. But many companies doesn't even bother to respond or they're coming up with a stupid, transparent excuse, nothing more.

Note also that the original blog post by the author Saundra Mitchell mentioned that the reader who raved about her book after illegally downloading it tried to defend herself by saying it wasn't available in her area...but it was.

Also ask the dear author, who was the one who uploaded the digital version of her novel? Sometimes the publishers are releasing their very own product (Games, movies, novels) via the internet. That's not a well known fact, but I also worked for some megacorporations and they used to leak their own products via torrents. Why? Because they're covering all fronts. If something goes wrong with the sales, they can blame the pirates. If everything goes right, the piracy is served as a good advertisement. Tricky method, but very transparent.

There are only few companies, which is openly told people how this thing is working. My favorite is Stardock Entertainment. Strange, but their sales never was truly bothered by pirates at all. They said, they're doing everything for the audience and you can see it in their products. And the pirates are also encouraged others to buy their product. Other companies, such as Electronic Arts, whose are enforcing their customers with stupid DRMs, a company which never gave a damn about their customers are whining about pirates (While even on the feedbacks at Amazon, you can see why the people hate that company and why they're choosing piracy instead. Not because the product, i.e. Mass Effect is bad. But if the customer is paying for something legally, the legal customers are much more restricted then the illegal ones. And that's a joke. Same goes for movie DVDs.)

Here is a fun picture about what I'm talking (And unfortunately in many cases, this is the truth.):


Now as novels are started to become digital, the very same is started to appear. What novels have? Different formats (Good only for one or two e-reader), possibly regional sales, etc, etc... These are all killing the sales, while the companies are believing these are necessary and it is going to generate more sales. Yeah, on a short term, but not a long one.

Guardian wrote:Also ask the dear author, who was the one who uploaded the digital version of her novel? Sometimes the publishers are releasing their very own product (Games, movies, novels) via the internet. That's not a well known fact, but I also worked for some megacorporations and they used to leak their own products via torrents. Why? Because they're covering all fronts. If something goes wrong with the sales, they can blame the pirates. If everything goes right, the piracy is served as a good advertisement. Tricky method, but very transparent.

Soooo they were sending cease and desist letters to themselves? Riiiiight. Let's say for a moment that I believe a company is secretly leaking their own novel/game/movie. It doesn't matter who put it on torrent. Again, downloading it is stealing. Still. Stealing.

Don't want to spend the money to buy it? Rent it. Borrow it from the library. Buy something else. Stealing is stealing, no matter how many rhetorical knots someone comes up with to justify it.

I also notice that we've turned against 'the dear author'. We have to go pretty far sometimes to justify our behavior. I also notice you haven't addressed the issue that the reader stole the book with an excuse that wasn't even true. She stole and she lied about why she stole. Yeah, totally the fault of the company and the author.

I hate that unskippable crap. Why do they put that there? I leave the room until it's ready to watch.

Where are their sales then?

sierramcconnell wrote:I hate that unskippable crap. Why do they put that there? I leave the room until it's ready to watch.

Where are their sales then?

You mean the FBI warning? I don't think that's meant to sell anything.

Margo wrote:Soooo they were sending cease and desist letters to themselves? Riiiiight. Let's say for a moment that I believe a company is secretly leaking their own novel/game/movie. It doesn't matter who put it on torrent. Again, downloading it is stealing. Still. Stealing.

Please don't be naive. Do you believe that in a mega corporation, where only two or three people has full access for the full material is suddenly leaked by an unknown person, before it's been sent to the factory to duplicate? And actually it does matter who is put it up to the torrent. Blaming people for stealing, while the companies are releasing their products for free via torrent to make a better advertisement is not stealing at all. You can see this pattern with movies the most when the DVD or HD!!! quality is out before the theatrical release (It happened few times already.). Same goes for many games, when the full release is out sometimes weeks before the game would be released. This is happening only in one case; if the torrent release is intentional and was did by the publisher, sometimes without the knowledge of the creator company or the content maker.

Don't want to spend the money to buy it? Rent it. Borrow it from the library. Buy something else. Stealing is stealing, no matter how many rhetorical knots someone comes up with to justify it.

In my native country there is a saying: Nowadays, publishers and companies are riding the horse backward (Raw translation: publishers and companies are living in a world of illusion.). Now, unfortunately defining stealing is a bit more complicated in this matter, since companies are also stealing from the buyer with promises, false advertisements and unkept promises. As I written before... there is a cause and effect. People are pirating is the effect. Always check the cause. Stealing is not good as it never was. But everything has a cause and effect. Always take up the question; what is forcing people to make drastic measures, like piracy?

Margo wrote:

sierramcconnell wrote:I hate that unskippable crap. Why do they put that there? I leave the room until it's ready to watch.

Where are their sales then?

You mean the FBI warning? I don't think that's meant to sell anything.

I mean the unskippable trailers.

Guardian wrote:Please don't be naive. Do you believe that in a mega corporation, where only two or three people has full access for the full material is suddenly leaked by an unknown person, before it's been sent to the factory to duplicate?

The novel torrent in question was put up AFTER publication, so this argument does not fit the situation. Please stop justifying theft for convenience and pleasure.

Guardian wrote:And actually it does matter who is put it up to the torrent.

Only to people who want to feel justified in stealing.

Guardian wrote:Blaming people for stealing, while the companies are releasing their products for free via torrent to make a better advertisement is not stealing at all.

So all those torrent copies are companies putting out copies of their own product and sinking their own sales? Not believable, but convenient to believe if you want to justify stealing.

Guardian wrote:In my native country there is a saying: Nowadays, publishers and companies are riding the horse backward. Now, unfortunately defining stealing is a bit more complicated in this matter, since companies are also stealing from the buyer with promises, false advertisements and unkept promises. As I written before... there is a cause and effect. People are pirating is the effect. Always check the cause.

Guardian, does your country have libraries? You have access to the internet, so there is zero reason you can't read a sample to find out if you want to buy a novel, read a review or a walkthrough to see if you want to buy a game, rent a movie to see if you'd like to buy it. If you steal it anyway it is because YOU WANT TO. It comes down to this. Is stealing for pleasure and convenience EVER justified? My response is no, not ever, ever, under any circumstances, no matter who uploaded the copies. NO. I suspect your response is quite different.

You need food and water and shelter to live. not novels and video games and movies. No one is forcing anyone to take drastic measures. That level of spoiled entitlement is taking the piss.

sierramcconnell wrote:I mean the unskippable trailers.

Huh? I watched two rented DVDs last night...skipped all the trailers.

Margo wrote:

sierramcconnell wrote:I mean the unskippable trailers.

Huh? I watched two rented DVDs last night...skipped all the trailers.

Not all DVDs have skippable trailers. Yes, there are some that do. Some, like a lot of Disney movies that were released a few years ago, had those darn unskippable trailers. A lot of Universal movies did the same thing. But they caught on when people stopped purchasing their DVDs because they HATED those unskippable trailers. You can skip things today on most blu-ray and re-released DVDs.

sierramcconnell wrote:But they caught on when people stopped purchasing their DVDs because they HATED those unskippable trailers. You can skip things today on most blu-ray and re-released DVDs.

There ya go. People stopped buying. The companies changed the product.

No stealing necessary.

Margo wrote:

sierramcconnell wrote:But they caught on when people stopped purchasing their DVDs because they HATED those unskippable trailers. You can skip things today on most blu-ray and re-released DVDs.

There ya go. People stopped buying. The companies changed the product.

No stealing necessary.

Where do you think they got their movies?

Movies.com, internet streaming, buying from the guy two aisles over who sells Twilight for $8 a pop pre-released bootleg...

Oops.

I hear a lot of things. I don't do them, but it's not like I don't hear them.