Nathan Bransford - The Forums

polymath wrote:Maturer and more skilled readers don't mind quiet openings so much and are able to process more viewpoints. Up to seven. Frankly, from what I've seen of your writing, I think the purpose and the target don't quite match up as might best be desired.

Maybe. Actually I wanted to write this for both adults and also young ones (YA cathegory), while I try to bring out the "forgotten childhood" from both. That's the essence of this WIP, to bring the child out from everyone, even from the adults. It's a really complex story, but it's not hard to understand it. The problem is... young ones are easily follows it as it's streching their imagination. The problem is appearing rather with the adults as the mentioned complexity is seemingly backfires in the beginning of the present version (But it's not appearing in the later chapters at all, just in the beginning.). It seems adults are accepting a new world a bit harder, then the young ones.

I'd have to do an in-depth reading and developmental editing project to answer your questions satisfactorily. And that's expensive, $0.35 to $1.00 per word.

Ah-hah! So, you're an editor! And a pretty skilled one as I see (Based on your responses and your knowledge). :) It's good to know.

Again, thank you for your advice. You're very-very helpful.

It's my sense the youngest and least skilled readers take a written work as it is, take it for granted a writer provides the best narrative possible, so long as they are able to follow it, albeit skimming and skipping parts that don't hold their attention. Middle young ages and middle levels readers, especially writers, get hung up on the whys and wherefores, and not a few older adults. Lifelong practicing readers, well, suffice to say, they multitask and can approach a novel from the intended target ages and older ages and from their personal sentiments and listen to their inner editor and inner writer and still closely track a narrative and its many viewpoints.

It may mean I'm an unsophicated reader hung up on evil rules, but I bought a book I was very excited about and found a page of info-dump (background information intended, in this case, to build character but not at all pertinent to what was going on at that moment or at any time in the next 40 pages...when I gave up). This pulled me immediately out of the story and disappointed me greatly. I was deep in the story up until that 3-paragraph aside, then got jerked out of the moment, something I don't think would have happened had the author provided the information at a time when it would have added meaning to what the character was feeling. But 3 paragraphs at once still might have been pushing it. After a few more asides and enough scenes to convince me I was dealing with a reactive hero, I stopped reading. I gave the book to a friend. The sequel came out recently. I didn't buy it. I haven't recommended his work to anyone else.

Take that for what it's worth. Maybe your readers won't care.

Sounds to me like an unsettled narrative point of view transition. Might it have had a rhetorical purpose that was not fully realized by the author, or just unrealized altogether? Yeah, I've read 'em like that but read past them anyway just to finish for the sake of being able to go back and recast for my own benefit. Where and how might that information have been more timely?

I agree with Polymath. Are info dumps really that bad? Okay, if it just a boring backstory (or whatever) badly written then leave it out. If the info could easily be cut and pasted later on to feed the information in bits, then consider doing that. But I, as a reader, have no problem with being fed information as long as its well done. I like back story. I like to know how the characters work and be able to picture their world.

A friend of mine just sent me her first draft of a paranormal thriller and its amazing. I'm jealous! But she'd kept the back story to a minimum not wanting to overload readers. The back story in the matter was a scientific one that I know a little (layman's knowledge) about but would be hazy if quizzed on the details. I suggested she actually add more info. She's a great writer, I'm sure she'll find a way to add it in well but I would have had no problems reading 2-3 pages on the subject. I was interested in knowing more, surely so would others? I had to Wiki it myself after reading her draft to find out more.

Let's unpack the anatomy of a so-called infodump. Information dump. Scratch dump. It's a negative valence term in any regard and automatically, imperatively condemns. Why not infodumb instead? Duh-huh dumb information. An oxymoron? Never mind. Information deposit then

Maybe, Infodump (bad) Vs a well told deposit of crucial information (good). That's how Rowling got away with it!

Are info dumps really that bad? Okay, if it just a boring backstory (or whatever) badly written then leave it out. If the info could easily be cut and pasted later on to feed the information in bits, then consider doing that. But I, as a reader, have no problem with being fed information as long as its well done. I like back story. I like to know how the characters work and be able to picture their world.

I feel the same and I used the very same approach what I like in novels. But not every reader is like you or me.

Maybe, Infodump (bad) Vs a well told deposit of crucial information (good). That's how Rowling got away with it!

So the same what Margo told me on Page 1.

polymath wrote:Sounds to me like an unsettled narrative point of view transition. Might it have had a rhetorical purpose that was not fully realized by the author, or just unrealized altogether? Yeah, I've read 'em like that but read past them anyway just to finish for the sake of being able to go back and recast for my own benefit. Where and how might that information have been more timely?

Yep. Presumably this was the problem in my case too. I just compared two of my infodump parts with fresh mind; one, which was considered as beautifully written, but still true infodump and the second, which is holding similar informations, yet they were considered as perfecto. The difference is the POV and the tone. As you said, it seems the unsettled narrative is the key and that is creating the infodumps in general.

Guardian, I noticed no infodumps in the two Harry Potter books, which I read for the first time last year. The word 'infodump' is more pejorative than descriptive, as Polymath points out. It means exposition that is not entertaining. Entertain well and you can do what you want. I've found all of Harry Potter very entertaining so far.

There's a time and a place for telling, and a time and a place for showing. Priority is the key. Showing is NOT always better. Some things should be outlined indirectly, others need their own scenes. One reader's infodump is another's interesting piece of exposition.

As a reader, I have no problem with well-done expository pieces, including prologues and 'found documents' and flashbacks and even narrator asides. Much of the later novels of Arthur C. Clarke were taken up with undisguised and unashamed chapter-length 'infodumps'.

I mark important things as I read both novels and non-fiction books, and I like to be able to reread such things if needs be, even in novels. Having background information in one place can make it easier to review. As a writer, though, I disperse information more widely and evenly throughout my WIP than I would demand as a reader, not out of a dislike of expository chunks, but because that just seems to right way for my WIP.

Polymath, excellent! You're spot on and timely about the power of negative terminology. It's no wonder the naming of things is such an important part of magic and myth. I am very careful about terminology and often define my terms, but still feel the lacking of voice tone and body language in online communication.

Catchwords and loaded terms and slogans and platitudes are all too convenient. And hyperfocus is indeed a temptation for critics.

The writer MUST sometimes deposit information in the reader's mental savings account (great metaphor!) well before its payoff. All that is required is that the information be interesting, relevant and memorable, and not stop the story. That it whet the reader's appetite without boring him. A bit like Chekov's rifles.

Further to Polymath's point, Guardian, when your readers classified sections as infodumps, what exactly was their problem? Was it just the classification or the underlying reality? Were they bored, confused, or what? Ask them why they dislike what they call 'infodumps'.

BTW, you're not the first to notice that young people follow imaginative stories better than adults. Some commenters think that's because the kids are still in school and more open to learning new things than many adults.

You have readers' execution squads in Hungary, Guardian? YIKES! But maybe not a bad idea. It puts Polymath's and my concerns about harsh language into perspective. Maybe you should pay him the (calculating) $338,000 to read your WIP...

I noticed no infodumps in the two Harry Potter books

The first two or three pages are similar "infodumps" what I had. The difference is the tone what Ms. Rowling solved perfectly, but where I've made the mistake in the previous version.

You have readers' execution squads in Hungary, Guardian? YIKES! But maybe not a bad idea.

:) Don't take it literally. Personally I always want to make readers happy and if I they're not happy, because I've made a mistake in the novel (Just as I did with those infodump parts), I feel myself guilty, because I couldn't fulfill a promise, regardless it's paying off in the end. Although, my readers are from all around the world, but none of them from Hungary. I'm not writing this novel to sell it in my country. At least, not in the first round. I'm writing this WIP for the U.S. and U.K. market (That's the primary goal.). It's a bit hard, because I must write on a different language, which is not my native language at all, but I strongly believe this world and it's story deserves the hard work.

The writer MUST sometimes deposit information in the reader's mental savings account (great metaphor!) well before its payoff. All that is required is that the information be interesting, relevant and memorable, and not stop the story. That it whet the reader's appetite without boring him. A bit like Chekov's rifles.

Actually it's paying off, but until not every reader is happy with the beginning, I must rewrite this part over and over again. If I must make it easier, or find another way, I'll do.

BTW, you're not the first to notice that young people follow imaginative stories better than adults. Some commenters think that's because the kids are still in school and more open to learning new things than many adults.

Yes. This is an experimental part in my WIP, because I'd like to bring out the child even from the adults. It's a hard job, but maybe it's not impossible.

Adults are all about rules whose forget how to dream. Children are all about fantasy whose never care about rules. Now CS Angeni has dozens of rules what adult test readers loved, but it's also capable to stretch the fantasy and this is what the younger test readers loved in it. Now I must find the right balance to present both perfectly, to present the rules a bit better for the young ones, while I also present the fantasy part a bit better to adult readers. With this, adults may remember how to dream, while children may learn the essence of rules what the adults love or hate so much.

It puts Polymath's and my concerns about harsh language into perspective. Maybe you should pay him the (calculating) $338,000 to read your WIP...

384,000 if he is counting one dollar per word. :) That's the complete length of the trilogy's present version, but I'm going to cut it with the final rewrite. But now, thanks to all these nice, kind and very helpful advices, yesterday I was capable to solve almost all these infodumps in Chapter 1. But personally I wouldn't mind if Polymath would be the final editor if this novel would come out in the future (But I guess this will depend on the publisher.).

Showing is NOT always better.

True, but there is also a difference between telling and telling. i.e. yesterday I've changed the tone in one of the infodumps. It's became an easier read, it's not pulling you out from the story, yet it's telling the very same what the previous one told, yet it's only 207 words instead of 470+. In the old version I presented the seasons on a general way (There was x seasons and I explained them one by one. Now I was capable to present it from the POV of the main character, while it's also became the part of the story. And it's also much more colorful.).

Were they bored, confused, or what? Ask them why they dislike what they call 'infodumps'.

Around 70-75% enjoyed those descriptions and considered as very colorful, very detailed and unique. The rest 25-30% found it boring and considered it as infodumps which is slowing the story. Now as it can be solved to keep the rest 25-30% entertained, while I'm keeping the essence of those parts, I'm doing this rewrite to make them happy too. And the pacing also will be better.