feedback on word counts

[cheekychook]

New blog out today by another well known agent, Colleen Lindsay----click the link to read her newly updated take on word count.

http://theswivet.blogspot.com/2008/03/o ... ength.html

[Down the well]

I tend to view 100K as an absolute ceiling. When I revise I always go up in word count, and right now I'm starting to panic a little like Charlie from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory when he's in the fizzy lifting drink room. Those 100K blades are spinning just above my head, and I'm not done revising yet. Time to start burping up those unnecessary words and phrases.

[Quill]

Thanks for posting the article, cheekychook.

I see by the trend to shorter manuscripts that the publishing industry is playing right into my evil, lazy hands!

[Holly]

I am one of those who is about 15% over the bar for my genre and I've been agonizing over what to trim and how much.

Congratulations for the full request.

I'm revising The Novel from Hell. I'm retyping the whole thing by hand, which is probably insane, but I'm happy with the result so far. I've ended up saying many things in a different way.

I'm cutting:
(1) minor introductory scenes to important scenes when the minor scenes are only mildly interesting and drag down the tension
(2) how characters get to important scenes (driving in the car, reflecting on whatever)
(3) what happens after important scenes if the characters are just being chatty, etc.

[sierramcconnell]

I had mine down to 110,000k

But then it read like an essay in parts.

So I said, screw word count, this is NOT what I wrote. I want the life back in the book, and I'm putting the life back in.

I'm in Chapter Eight, and at 113,000. I'm hoping to only hit about 115,000.

Everyone says its YA and that it shouldn't be that long. I tell them, it's as long as it takes for the story to be told. And no one who read it ever said it was too long. They liked the book. It was well written and everything was wrapped up to them to a point (it's supposed to have a sequel).

So until I start querying, I'm not worrying about it. I've looked and looked. Nothing else can be cut out. All parts are important.

I just hope it works. If not, maybe this one will sit with me while I get a few others under the belt. :3

[bcomet]

I have a novel at 115,000. and it also (gag) has three protags (so hard to write a good strong–brief–query letter with three protags) and (so far) have no agent bites. (Which made me really insecure.)

The Betas have really supported it as is. But I've had editor friends say, 115,000 is too long for a first novel.

So I put it away for awhile and wrote a shorter novel and it's getting bites.

Seems wrong to change a story just for the market to me. Editing is so hard. Sometimes it is needed. Sometimes, you just have to stand by your work -at least until they read it first!

[sierramcconnell]

Yeah. Because this novel has multiple characters, it's very hard to shorten it anymore and it'll be very hard to get it querified. XD

But if all else fails, I have another novel I'll be working on for 2010 NaNo. I just haven't decided if I want to keep it First Person, One POV or if I'm going to fall into that same trap again, considering this covers more than 100+ years. I keep thinking I might have to pull what Angelology did and switch characters mid-book through to get the other side of the story, years prior. Because what happened in the 30s and 40s is very important to what's going to happen to Bradley, whether or not he knows it.

And Cael, I think, will be leaving a lot of journals to make sure everyone knows it, just right before the big end.

Ah, decisions decisions.

[Quill]

sierramcconnell, good for you!

Definitely life is more important than length. And like is more important, too. One must like what one is producing.

Let the agents and editors do their fang work later to reduce it if it absolutely has to be reduced.

[polymath]

Two preeminent factors drive word count reduxes. One, packaging. A book of a nonstandard size means unwanted crush space in boxes, which can spoil otherwise nonperishable inventory. A standard 100,000 standard word novel (six glyphs equals one standard word by typesetter's count) averages 300 pages cover to cover including frontmatter and backmatter. A wordprocessor word count can deviate from standard word count by up to twenty-five percent plus or minus, usually plus or more like 100,000 wordprocessor count will actually come out to 125,000 standard words.

A book paper page averages one point thickness, twelve points to a pica, six picas to an inch. Roughly an inch book block including cover thickness, three-sixteenths inch casecover end boards or three-point paperback index end covers. Anyway, it comes out to about an inch thickness: six inches by nine inches trade paperback, six and a half inches by nine and a half inches casecover, four and a quarter inches by seven inches massmarket paperback.

The bindery company's boxes, palettes, and truck inventory are stocked to contain standard sizes without crush space and for benefits from economy of scale bulk purchases. The publisher's warehouses are organized for standard sized palettes. Order fulfillment centers are organized to accommodate standard palette sizes. Bookshelves are designed to accept standard book sizes, though thicknesses aren't as critical as heights for home, office, and library bookshelves. Everyone downstream from an author depends on standard sizes.

Two, reading speed. Young adult readers average between two hundred and three hundred words per minute comprehension reading rate (for entertainment reading), though the U.S. average is only one hundred fifty words per minute for the age group overall. Regardless, a 100,000 word novel takes the average regular young adult reader five to six hours to read in one or two sittings. Cultural coding conventions demand no more. Many readers prefer a one-sitting novel reading experience. It's built in by early reading skills development and tailored to age group attention span. Plus, a novel is usually better when it's read in one sitting. Twenty-five thousand more words adds a quarter more time--say, an hour and a half--to reading time and causes scheduling prediction conflicts.

On the other hand, standardization means postpositively standardized dramatic structures, another cultural coding convention, although art respects no commerce-driven standardization, per se.

Now, why standard widths and heights and thicknesses and margins are critical for published novels or Standard Manuscript Format manuscripts has to do with the Golden Ratio. Where a + b is to a as a is to b or approximately 1.6180339887. Form follows function. The function of the Golden Ratio is to have forms that are aesthetically invisible to the eye. Disproportionate ratios can be consciously, subconsciously, or nonconsciously unsettling.

[sierramcconnell]

The last YA book I read was 474 pages long. IT WAS RIDICULOUS.

[polymath]

474 pages, somewhere around 165,000 standard words. A recent literary novel I read went 350,000 words. I finished it in two five-hour sittings, but I read above the average U.S. adult pace and comprehension. Joyce's Ulysses it wasn't though similar in length, which I've read several times. The first time was several many several-hour sittings. I've read it slower and slower since.

[Holly]

Two preeminent factors drive word count reduxes. One, packaging. A book of a nonstandard size means unwanted crush space in boxes, which can spoil otherwise nonperishable inventory. A standard 100,000 standard word novel (six glyphs equals one standard word by typesetter's count) averages 300 pages cover to cover including frontmatter and backmatter. A wordprocessor word count can deviate from standard word count by up to twenty-five percent plus or minus, usually plus or more like 100,000 wordprocessor count will actually come out to 125,000 standard words.

A book paper page averages one point thickness, twelve points to a pica, six picas to an inch. Roughly an inch book block including cover thickness, three-sixteenths inch casecover end boards or three-point paperback index end covers. Anyway, it comes out to about an inch thickness: six inches by nine inches trade paperback, six and a half inches by nine and a half inches casecover, four and a quarter inches by seven inches massmarket paperback.

The bindery company's boxes, palettes, and truck inventory are stocked to contain standard sizes without crush space and for benefits from economy of scale bulk purchases. The publisher's warehouses are organized for standard sized palettes. Order fulfillment centers are organized to accommodate standard palette sizes. Bookshelves are designed to accept standard book sizes, though thicknesses aren't as critical as heights for home, office, and library bookshelves. Everyone downstream from an author depends on standard sizes.

Two, reading speed. Young adult readers average between two hundred and three hundred words per minute comprehension reading rate (for entertainment reading), though the U.S. average is only one hundred fifty words per minute for the age group overall. Regardless, a 100,000 word novel takes the average regular young adult reader five to six hours to read in one or two sittings. Cultural coding conventions demand no more. Many readers prefer a one-sitting novel reading experience. It's built in by early reading skills development and tailored to age group attention span. Plus, a novel is usually better when it's read in one sitting. Twenty-five thousand more words adds a quarter more time--say, an hour and a half--to reading time and causes scheduling prediction conflicts.

On the other hand, standardization means postpositively standardized dramatic structures, another cultural coding convention, although art respects no commerce-driven standardization, per se.

Now, why standard widths and heights and thicknesses and margins are critical for published novels or Standard Manuscript Format manuscripts has to do with the Golden Ratio. Where a + b is to a as a is to b or approximately 1.6180339887. Form follows function. The function of the Golden Ratio is to have forms that are aesthetically invisible to the eye. Disproportionate ratios can be consciously, subconsciously, or nonconsciously unsettling.

Polymath, this is really interesting. Thanks for posting it.

[polymath]

You're welcome, Holly.

There's a reason or two the publishing marketplace asks for standardization and a reason or two writers strive for deviation. In an absolute final analysis narrative arts come down to the words speaking for themselves through bookmaking arts that evolved over centuries into the most aesthetically pleasing forms possible. Writers either have little knowledge of the whys and wherefores of bookmaking or are seeking to stir up the anthill so the package stands out from the pack. But when the package stands out from the pack it's more costly if not more nuisance to handle. A first-time published author is an unknown marketplace quantity and might not justify increased costs or nuisances. A first printing of an unknown might only be a couple thousand books. Economy of scale manufacturing dictates standardization of so short a production run for what amounts to a marketplace test to keep costs and loss risks in check. A known marketplace quantity enjoys more leeway. Actually, a popular author builds audience interests by delivering more and better, so longer subsequent novels are more likely than shorter ones.

[Margo]

Many readers prefer a one-sitting novel reading experience.

Interesting point. I have noticed recently that my preference definitely runs in this direction. Too many sittings does take away from the experience for me.

[polymath]

Cool, Margo. Though a writer's creative vision belongs to the writer, at some point readers want to own it too. Fitting readers' comfort zones is something every writer who wants a large audience ought to consider important. I've encountered in my investigations of reading and writing habits three broad groupings of writers' attitudes. Readers can take what writers serve. Writers can fit reader comfort zones. Or writers can entertainingly challenge reader comfort zones. I prefer to write to the second and read in the third. Accomplished authors manage the third better than struggling writers manage the second. The first rarely has any appealing viability anymore, though once upon a time that's about all there was besides folklore tales.