TWILIGHT - thoughts?

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Ishta
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Re: TWILIGHT - thoughts?

Post by Ishta » February 22nd, 2010, 2:35 pm

Thanks, Emily!

:-)

I have to say that the reactions people have been having to the _Twilight_ books fascinates me, and I am eager to finish the series to see where I fall at the end of the day - some loved the books more and more as the series progressed, others thought they got off to a great start and then went downhill from there. I've tried to stay away from the spoilers, so I really don't know what I'll think by the end. But regardless of whether I like the books, I do think it's important to know what people are interested in buying. I am also an actor (at the beginning of my career, as in my writing), and I am faced with the same questions in that field: do I produce something commercial, or artistic? A lot of actors and writers end up doing the commercial stuff to pay the bills, and satisfy their own need for producing something well-crafted and beautiful (albeit unpopular) in their spare time on the side. But to try to deny that artsy or literary stuff tends not to sell very well is akin to burying our heads in the sand, in my opinion.

What I want to know is, why do all the agents and editors tell us the things that they do - cut down on adverbs, avoid over-describing and repetition, get critique, follow these "rules" - when the blockbuster stuff does something else? Is it a test, so that it's obvious when someone new comes along? Is it the literary world's answer to hazing? What's the story here? For now, I'm just focusing on the plot, on trying to get my story down, and then I'll go from there, but in the meantime, I'd really like to know.

Trying to keep my head out of the sand,
-Ishta

ltm
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Re: TWILIGHT - thoughts?

Post by ltm » February 22nd, 2010, 11:23 pm

everything Ishta said, except add "Behold the power of marketing."

I had preschool-aged kids when I picked up Twilight, and it was ONLY because I saw it reviewed in Entertainment Weekly and my curiosity was piqued. (Plus I kinda dug the cover.) Yep. Kudos to her; SM did a great job--fun story, great hook, easy to read, and her people got the word out...

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eringayles
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Re: TWILIGHT - thoughts?

Post by eringayles » March 3rd, 2010, 4:47 am

Lorelei Armstrong wrote:
gigilala wrote:Sorry Lorelei, but "the lady doth protest too much, methinks."
Hey, I'm old, I've read almost nothing but literary fiction for twenty years, I've got the graduate degree in writing, and I don't like Ms. Meyer's work. As a reader I don't like poor writing, I don't like average writing, and nothing about a pile of money makes that kind of writing appealing to me as a writer. I'll write the kind of thing I admire, or try to, and Ms. Meyer's efforts do not fall into that category.
Lorelei,
Yes, very impressive . . . but are you published????

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eringayles
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Re: TWILIGHT - thoughts?

Post by eringayles » March 3rd, 2010, 5:17 am

We've all been told what to, and what not to do, when writing a novel. I'm sure there are many people who follow these pedantics with tongue lolling and mouth frothing; those who don't are probably the ones who ignore rules and command attention.
The high-brow wanna-bees seem of the opinion that writing is some sacred calling - like sainthood - and if you're another Mary MacKillop, hold that thought; that is, if you've got a few hundred years to wait for glory. If not, treat the muse as a business: know the market, take risks, break a few rules.
Meyer gave a younger audience the ultimate devil-worship, the forbidden fruit, and a thesaurus load of adverbs - and they became addicted. . . to each his own. To Meyer, the oyster.
Steven King does it - without the adverbs), Dan Brown, many others, and now Meyer - never Mary. (Actually she did break rules, didn't she? Should have been an author . . . )

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abc
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Re: TWILIGHT - thoughts?

Post by abc » March 3rd, 2010, 11:24 am

I also think Ishta said it exactly right (I love you too, Ishta. Call me!).

I'll be interested to see how you think it played out.

Spoiler Alert!

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Renesme? No. Worst fiction name ever.

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Lorelei Armstrong
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Re: TWILIGHT - thoughts?

Post by Lorelei Armstrong » March 3rd, 2010, 2:39 pm

eringayles wrote:
Lorelei Armstrong wrote:
gigilala wrote:Sorry Lorelei, but "the lady doth protest too much, methinks."
Hey, I'm old, I've read almost nothing but literary fiction for twenty years, I've got the graduate degree in writing, and I don't like Ms. Meyer's work. As a reader I don't like poor writing, I don't like average writing, and nothing about a pile of money makes that kind of writing appealing to me as a writer. I'll write the kind of thing I admire, or try to, and Ms. Meyer's efforts do not fall into that category.
Lorelei,
Yes, very impressive . . . but are you published????
Is this information so difficult to discover?

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eringayles
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Re: TWILIGHT - thoughts?

Post by eringayles » March 3rd, 2010, 5:18 pm

Congrats, Lorelei. Couldn't find any reviews, so assumed vanity publishing. Admit I didn't spend ages searching. A shame publisher was so short-lived. Mine's been kicking for 80 yrs - hope ebooks don't cark them as well!

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Re: TWILIGHT - thoughts?

Post by Sam » March 7th, 2010, 3:29 am

When I first read Twilight I had this thought and seeing the movie has just enhanced it..

In The Lost Boys the movie near the end the main vampire says, " It was all about you Lucy. I just wanted us to be one big happy family" Then one of the comic brothers says, " Great the blood sucking Brady Bunch", that's what Twilight reminds me of, a blood sucking Brady Bunch.

Well with a little Interview with the Vampire thrown in, Louis going through his rat eating spell.

Sam

BlancheKing
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Re: TWILIGHT - thoughts?

Post by BlancheKing » March 7th, 2010, 3:39 pm

Very well said Sam.

I feel that some are really missing the point here. Twilight is professional fan fiction writing, and nothing but. Women love it because it presents the ideal male in a different type of package, and men dislike it because it sets an unrealistic standard for them. So I have to agree with Lorelai: the book is not a well written one, even for young adult. (And ladies, what does her published credentials have anything to do with this? I assumed that being in your 20's and 30's meant the "nuh-uh says you" phase was over.) It falls but one step short of a dime novel romance that you'd find sitting in the discount section of a library.

And whoever made the physics argument, please don't. Your logic will lead to disaster. As Newton stated, for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Therefore, given that female teenagers screaming for Edward Cullen, it would be understandable for male teens to scream for (insert male-ideal female character here). But also, by your logic, because 30 years old women publicly displaying their love for Edward Cullen, and all things being equal and if gender equality does exist, then 30 years old men have every right to desire a 17 years old girl. Creepy much? I fear for society.

All things aside, Twilight is a great psychological experiment for gender differences. On of the girls on my dorm-floor did a study earlier this year. Women favor Edward because he is the ideal guy: dangerous but caring, with plenty of charm. (By the way, that's objectifying men, but you don't see them complaining nearly as much.) And men dislike him for the same reason. But, supposing that Edward cheated on Bella with her best friend, his favor among women drastically decreased by the same amount it increased among guys. I would suppose the same goes for hot-busty-sports-watching-sandwich-making-private-lap-dancing female character, if she ever made it onto the shelves long enough without loud female protests about "the objectifying of women".

Edit: oh, gigilala made the physics statement. In that cause I'll address both issues at once. Your statement about the whole "1st agent she queried" is wrong. The correct answer, as given by Meyers herself, is...

"Meyer: Sheer luck or fate or what have you. I had the easiest publishing experience in the entire world. I sent out 15 query letters to agents. I got five no-replies, nine rejections, and one "I want to see it." A month later I had an agent. Another month later, I had a three-book deal. It does not happen that way, so if you expect that going in, get ready for heartbreak."
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TheShadow
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Re: TWILIGHT - thoughts?

Post by TheShadow » March 7th, 2010, 8:32 pm

BlancheKing wrote:I would suppose the same goes for hot-busty-sports-watching-sandwich-making-private-lap-dancing female character, if she ever made it onto the shelves long enough without loud female protests about "the objectifying of women".
There is no supposing about it, and no need for loud female protest, as men DO NOT read for the hot-busty-lap dancing female character. We are very much visual creatues and never pick up a book thinking, "Hmm, I wonder if the chicks in this are hot." This is a purely female phenomenon.

Also - I highly doubt men dislike Twilight because they are emasculated by Edward. Were this the case the pornography industry would have gone bottom up long ago (no pun intended).
What dark dreams lay in dormant minds?

BlancheKing
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Re: TWILIGHT - thoughts?

Post by BlancheKing » March 7th, 2010, 9:22 pm

Details and female habit aside, the concept nevertheless addresses bias. The protests against supermodels are still as loud and obnoxious as ever. Should women be allowed to drool over the Edward Cullens of fiction when they berate their husbands for pin-up posters of Bar Rafaeli? Let's not have double standards here.

As for the reason men dislike Twilight, whether you highly doubt or not, look at the facts: the male opinion. Feel free to google "why men hate twilight". It demeans and objectifies them (double-standard again). Porn is concentrated on the action, not the people. Twilight is unfortunately concentrated on the people. If the average man behaved like Edward Cullen, Homeland Security would be making a fortune...

I'm not a chauvinist, but ladies, think of your husbands. If you expect them not to stare at passing pretty women, stop expecting them to look like Twilight characters
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TheShadow
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Re: TWILIGHT - thoughts?

Post by TheShadow » March 7th, 2010, 9:36 pm

I will have to take your word on that, BlancheKing. I dont much care about double standards, as the standards are pointless (gotta love PC america), but I do wonder who these 'men' are who were asked why they hate Twilight. I was speaking from real world practicality, and I still highly doubt I could ever find a man who hates twilight because they feel objectified by Edward (or wish they were him, but cant be).

But, I am not here to argue and be stubborn. And personally, I only sometimes cry in the corner when I see a Twilight movie preview with Edwards beautiful face on the screen.
What dark dreams lay in dormant minds?

Erica75
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Re: TWILIGHT - thoughts?

Post by Erica75 » March 7th, 2010, 10:05 pm

I can't sort through all the posts on this thread. I'm only a quarter into my second novel with the first in query stage and I WILL NOT procrastinate that way (I hope)!!! All I have to say is STOP THE MADNESS!! Twilight did awesome - kudos to Stephenie Meyer. We should all do so well. Saying you're better is not proving it, so get off this thread and write your own best seller!!!!
we blog - erica and christy - http://lynneawest.blogspot.com/

Nick
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Re: TWILIGHT - thoughts?

Post by Nick » March 7th, 2010, 10:45 pm

BlancheKing wrote: As for the reason men dislike Twilight, whether you highly doubt or not, look at the facts: the male opinion. Feel free to google "why men hate twilight". It demeans and objectifies them (double-standard again).
Scusi madonna, but I must disagree. As a man who hates Twilight, knows many men who hate Twilight, both in person and online, and considers himself an MRA, we do not hate Twilight because it objectifies us men. We hate it because it's tripe. Whether or not it does objectify men is debatable, but it is not why we hate it. Some men, perhaps, perhaps. But no man I know.

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maybegenius
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Re: TWILIGHT - thoughts?

Post by maybegenius » March 8th, 2010, 12:46 am

Out of curiosity, I Googled "why men hate Twilight." I didn't find much in the way of "because it objectifies men." I found a lot of "because it's a female-centric romance that I can't relate to" and "because I don't like the way it's written," though.

I find it interesting that while Meyer does regularly describe Edward's looks, you're choosing to use his depiction of "charming" and "dangerous but caring" to illustrate how the book "objectifies" men. I'm kind of failing to see how personality traits are objectification. Unrealistic expectations, maybe, but objectification?

Objectification is treating a person as an object. Female objectification is treating a woman as little more than a group of body parts, or using those parts as inanimate objects. Essentially, it's separating her humanity from her body. I'm not seeing the comparison here. If you're going for the objectification angle, I'd try picking on the constant descriptions of physical appearance and reference to a statuesque physique. Which Meyer eventually does with Bella, as well. The books (in my opinion) are overly concerned with physical beauty.

Even so, I'd still argue that although Edward's physical appearance (as well as Jacob's) are focused on, they never become fully objectified. Their humanity is never removed from their physical shell. Their bodies are never severed from their personalities and emotions. THAT is what makes it objectification.

For what it's worth, I personally do not find Edward or any of the Twilight "hunks" attractive. I certainly do not want my significant other to look or behave like Edward.
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