Using pop culture

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lmjackson
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Using pop culture

Post by lmjackson » January 14th, 2010, 10:11 pm

In regards to referencing pop culture like celebrities (Brad Pitt, Britney Spears), brands (Versace, CoverGirl), and products (iMac, Playstation), is it no holds barred? Obviously slander in such can be a problem, but is mentioning it in passing alright?

Also I'm curious about how receptive an agent would be to a manuscript that makes such references often. Especially if it's done tastefully (then again, who decides if it's tasteful enough is another matter). Authors of YA fiction like Meg Cabot and Cecily von Ziegesar tend to do it often, but I have no clue what kind of hoops they had to jump through to be able to do so.
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Dankrubis
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Re: Using pop culture

Post by Dankrubis » January 14th, 2010, 11:16 pm

In all my creative writing classes through college, mentioning anything pop culture was met with gasps and guffaws.

Which basically translates to - if you're writing great literary novels, don't do it. If you're writing genre novels, have at it.

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Re: Using pop culture

Post by matt mc » January 15th, 2010, 10:52 am

No offense, Dankrubis (because I take from your comment that you know this), but creative writing classes, while fun and helpful, tend to foster a lot of snootiness. I wouldn't say it's a matter of literary vs. genre fiction. I think it's a matter of taste and tastfulness, and the desired effect of such references (in lit fiction, e.g., compare Infinite Jest to Less than Zero to see how differently pop-culture references can be handled). Fact is, after Tarantino, any movie I watch that tries to wax clever by peppering its dialogue with pop-culture references and jokes, I can't take seriously. Same tends to be true with fiction of any genre. It often feels like the writer is trying too hard to make a point, or be cool or "relevant." It can be done well, but I'm of the mind that this is one of those case-by-case things.
Last edited by matt mc on January 28th, 2010, 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

lmjackson
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Re: Using pop culture

Post by lmjackson » January 15th, 2010, 11:52 am

Thank you both for the advice.
Which basically translates to - if you're writing great literary novels, don't do it. If you're writing genre novels, have at it.
That makes sense. I understand that referencing a certain event or popular figure can really date a novel. The great literary novels are often timeless.
Fact is, after Tarantino, any movie I watch that tries to wax clever by peppering its dialogue with pop-culture references and jokes, I can't take seriously. Same tends to be true with fiction of any genre. It often feels like the writer is trying too hard to make a point, or be cool or "relevant." It can be done well, but I'm of the mind that this is one of those case-by-case things.
Thanks, I'll definitely keep that in mind. There is such a thing and trying too hard to be cool, something I surely want to avoid!
Junior student studying at the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign.
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Holly
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Re: Using pop culture

Post by Holly » January 15th, 2010, 10:22 pm

lmjackson wrote:In regards to referencing pop culture like celebrities (Brad Pitt, Britney Spears), brands (Versace, CoverGirl), and products (iMac, Playstation), is it no holds barred? Obviously slander in such can be a problem, but is mentioning it in passing alright?

Also I'm curious about how receptive an agent would be to a manuscript that makes such references often. Especially if it's done tastefully (then again, who decides if it's tasteful enough is another matter). Authors of YA fiction like Meg Cabot and Cecily von Ziegesar tend to do it often, but I have no clue what kind of hoops they had to jump through to be able to do so.
Another point to consider: pop culture references will date your novel. When will your novel be on the shelves? A year from now? Two years? Where will those celebrities be? And technology changes so quickly that the stuff you mention now might be obsolete.

Harper Karcz
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Re: Using pop culture

Post by Harper Karcz » January 15th, 2010, 10:51 pm

Mentioning brand names and famous people is fine from a legal standpoint. The only time you would have a problem is if you misrepresented a company or product in a potentially harmful way -- e.g., the people in your story are all poisoned from drinking Diet Pepsi, or a bunch of kids get a weird skin disease after eating Chicken McNuggets.

Re: dating your novel. It's hard to avoid using *any* cultural references that might be telling of a particular time, and I think trying to completely write out pop culture can make for less believability, especially if you're writing a realistic / contemporary novel I notice in a lot of novels that authors give their characters interests that are rather time-proof, like enjoying classical music or the Rolling Stones or movies from the 1940s. But this might not be all that believable, either, if you're writing about modern-day teenagers. My solution (and I write contemporary YA) is to have a mix of current references, older references, and made-up references. For example, in my current WIP, I have one character who's obsessed with Stephen Sondheim's Broadway musicals, another who has conversations with her much-prized picture of Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor, and another who can't stop listening to the debut album of a (imaginary) band called Firing Squad.
Having just the vision's no solution
Everything depends on execution.

-- Stephen Sondheim

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Holly
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Re: Using pop culture

Post by Holly » January 16th, 2010, 8:49 am

Harper Karcz wrote:Mentioning brand names and famous people is fine from a legal standpoint. The only time you would have a problem is if you misrepresented a company or product in a potentially harmful way -- e.g., the people in your story are all poisoned from drinking Diet Pepsi, or a bunch of kids get a weird skin disease after eating Chicken McNuggets.

Re: dating your novel. It's hard to avoid using *any* cultural references that might be telling of a particular time, and I think trying to completely write out pop culture can make for less believability, especially if you're writing a realistic / contemporary novel I notice in a lot of novels that authors give their characters interests that are rather time-proof, like enjoying classical music or the Rolling Stones or movies from the 1940s. But this might not be all that believable, either, if you're writing about modern-day teenagers. My solution (and I write contemporary YA) is to have a mix of current references, older references, and made-up references. For example, in my current WIP, I have one character who's obsessed with Stephen Sondheim's Broadway musicals, another who has conversations with her much-prized picture of Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor, and another who can't stop listening to the debut album of a (imaginary) band called Firing Squad.
Re: dating your novel with pop references, I didn't express myself very well. I agree with you, cultural references are a great way to make a story believable. You just have to look at how they date your work. For example, photography, cell phones, and email appear in my WIP. Technology keeps changing, so I've had to go back and update my pages. A character now would text another character instead of calling, etc.

Harper Karcz
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Re: Using pop culture

Post by Harper Karcz » January 16th, 2010, 10:09 am

Ah. Good point about making references to technology. My characters have switched from calling / e-mailing to mostly texting, too. I try to make sure that none of my main plot points rely too much on any given item of current technology -- like, say, my character has to send a really important e-mail, and she has to find a computer to do it (versus just borrowing her friend's iPhone or BlackBerry).

Here's a funny blog entry I read earlier this week about examples of obsolete tech still being used in movies:
http://nymag.com/daily/entertainment/20 ... rpris.html
Having just the vision's no solution
Everything depends on execution.

-- Stephen Sondheim

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