Pronunciation Guides in Novels

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Beethovenfan
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Pronunciation Guides in Novels

Post by Beethovenfan » March 12th, 2011, 9:59 pm

I was reading in the ALL THINGS BOOKS part of the forums under character names we don't like. Someone mentioned that if you have to have a pronunciation guide in order to get through the names that perhaps the names should be changed. I am in the middle of a historical fiction that uses a LOT of Native American words and names. I recently had my husband read through some chapters and he suggested that I have a pronunciation guide.

All the names I've used are real, or in other words, I did not make them up. I hate to change them because the names give meaning to the characters, but I also don't want to shoot myself in the foot before I've had a chance to even aim at the target.

So. What do you all think? Do I need to re-think all the names, or should I go ahead with the pronunciation guide? Or perhaps there's a third option I've not thought of?
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Re: Pronunciation Guides in Novels

Post by Collectonian » March 12th, 2011, 10:32 pm

I think it would be very helpful to have a pronunciation guide. I find it to be a nice touch, and have appreciated them in other novels I've read with names I'm not familiar with or that were made up (a la Watership Down) Sadly, much of the country has little exposure to Native American words anymore, so many can't even make an educated guess on how it might be said. While I know some folks don't like names they can't pronounce, to me it's part of life. Would people ask their coworkers to change their name because they can't pronounce them, or just ask them how to say it? At least yours are real names and not made up *grin*

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Re: Pronunciation Guides in Novels

Post by polymath » March 12th, 2011, 11:34 pm

Native American names are tough pronounciations. A guide and vocabulary is one option.

Native language names have meanings. Pocahontas for example, means little wanton, her father's name given for her flirtatious playfulness. She had other names other people called her. Favorite Daughter, for one, though no one today knows the Algonguin-Powhatan term for favorite. Mamanatowick Amosens, Paramount Headman Daughter, Werowance Amosens, Headman Daughter, for others. Matoaka is the name she told John Rolfe was her spirit name. Rolfe was her Anglo husband. Matoaka means blue lake. Her baptismal and married name was Rebecca Rolfe. A spirit name is not shared traditionally because an enemy or a spirit might use it for harm.

Native American place names also have translations. Chesapeake means village at a great river. Miami means people of the peninsula. Wisconsin means it lies red for the reddish Wisconsin River. Michigan means great lake. Michi or mishi is an Objibwe-Algonquin prefix meaning great.

Anyway, third option, translate the native language names into proximal or literal translations and use those.
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Re: Pronunciation Guides in Novels

Post by Guardian » March 13th, 2011, 5:34 am

Renaming them is one option, but I believe it's also not necessary because this problem is originating from somewhere else. General human ignorance. I also use Native American names at many places in one of my WIP and because people simply never heard about those names they already believe they're fictive names, they can't pronounce it and they demand their change. But if I change them, the essence would lost. Pronunciation guide is another option. But that also wouldn't help much at all as if someone never heard about those names, the previous option, the "they can't or worse, don't want to imagine it" comes into the picture. So you can't do anything with this as the problem is not on your side, but on the reader's side. Never dumb down your work, because someone can't imagine something. Renaming is considered as dumbing down, especially if you're using existing or existed names from existing or existed cultures. Pronunciation guide can help you in this, but as I said, who can't imagine a name without pronunciation guide, there is a great chance they won't be able to imagine and / or love it with pronunciation guide too.
Third option, translate the native language names into proximal or literal translations and use those.
Translations is the worst option. i.e.: It's like if you would translate my name, Istvan to "Crown" (Hypothetical original meaning) or if you would use the English version, Steven instead. But in my native language it's also meaning something else; "Wreath" (The Roman Wreath), which is already something else than "Crown" or "Defiant, peace and balance lover hardworking person" which is definitely something else than "Crown". Same goes for Native American names. There are multiple meanings, not just one. And the major problem with renaming... as you rename someone, as you make "literal translations" you already would talk about a different person, not about the same. If you want to write or read about other cultures, you also must understand other cultures, respect those cultures instead of renaming them. Renaming someone or something because you or others can't imagine or pronounce their names is the worst approach as it's also may offend the person and his / her culture.

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Re: Pronunciation Guides in Novels

Post by Quill » March 13th, 2011, 12:09 pm

My manuscript also contains a fair number of Native American names and words. I'm handling it in a variety of ways including a) a short pronunciation key; b) choosing easier rather than harder names where possible; c) using phonetic spellings where possible; d) making words obvious through context (example: the native word for "thank you" where it would normally appear); e) translation (example: "Gatoweh, autumn").

I'd say overall comprehension is the most important end goal. As a reader I don't mind skimming over some names (even of main characters) without being able to pronounce them, or reading even entire sentences in a foreign language, so long as my overall understanding of the story doesn't suffer. A little authenticity is better than a bland read where every little thing is spelled out or simplified, where historical novels are concerned, in my opinion.

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Re: Pronunciation Guides in Novels

Post by longknife » March 13th, 2011, 12:35 pm

I have two novels due for publication by Virtual Tales and they both use Native American names as well as many Spanish words. I didn't use a pronunciation guide but did my best to use names readers would likely be able to accept on the printed page.
I think it's very important to stay true to the original, if no more than to respect those who carried the names.

I've also seen in the first or very last part of the novel, a list of characters - sometimes including pronunciation.
I think it allows the reader to feel comfortable and not get lost when new characters appear or reappear.

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Re: Pronunciation Guides in Novels

Post by polymath » March 13th, 2011, 1:36 pm

But I do understand Native American culture. More than understand. I am part Native American. My maternal grandparents chose two different paths for their native legacies. Grandma celebrated her heritage. Grandpa denied his unto his deathbed. One of many irreconcilable differences they had. Yet it was Grandpa's genealogy documentation that proved a close maternal lineage cousin of mine was sufficiently of native heritage to qualify for a Bureau of Indian Affairs college scholarship. Though Cousin was four generations removed from living on the reservation. How ironic. Grandpa set out to sanitize his genealogy and wound up proving he was of the blood, though he remained steadfast in his convictions until the end. I celebrate his life with these words: He remained true to himself.

I am at least a quarter Native American. I have celebrated my multicultural heritages since I was a youngster.

A surviving Native American name is one of many a person or place may have had. Usually a nickname given for some prominent aspect. Sometimes a derogatory term. Frequently some type of synecdoche or metonymy.

Native place names relate to some memorable, descriptive facet useful for giving oral directions to travelers. Fork of the Three Rivers. Turtle Rock. Town of the Falling Water. Nation of the True People. Place of the Strangers from Underneath the World. Five Land Fingers Grip Water. Grandfather HIckory. West Road.

A Native American person's name changes many times over time. A birth name is given related to some omen or augury or other, once survival is comparatively assured and five senses intact, ten fingers, ten toes, etc. Other names come and go as a person ages. A secret spirit name is taken at the time of a passage into adulthood ritual. For both boys and girls roughly at the onset of puberty. The name comes from a personal spirit guide presenting during the ritual. Other names are given and taken as circumstances arise. Like from a particularly embarrassing or bold or endearing or whatever event. Some other prominent feature might become a given name.

Like Ear Snake, Deer Kicker, Wind Passes, Sleep Talk, Two Hands, Red Feather, Marsh Blossom, Squat Water and so on. Ear Snake wore a live garter snake draped as jewelry in a pierced ear. Deer Kicker took delight in running up to a fire-light transfixed deer and kicking it. Wind Passes had a flatulence issue. Sleep Talk talked in his sleep. Two Hands painted two hands on his shoulder, war paint meaning he'd counted coup twice. Red Feather won his eagle feather for killing in battle but was gravely wounded and survived. Marsh Blossom wore a marsh mallow blossom in her hair in springtime. Squat Water peed squating. I guess someone got a laugh from it and the name stuck. As more prominent aspects present other public names arise. Bravery in battle. Cunning in hunting or foraging. Status promotion or demotion within a group. Identifying by a visual characteristic. Or name given for the benefit of recounting a prominent participation in a history or legend or myth or storyteller tale.

I"ve been given dozens of nicknames throughout my life. New circumstances, new names. Some I didn't care for and had to live down. None have been anything particularly endearing, except Mother's personal nickname for me. It's sacred. My spirit name remains a secret.

Western or Old World imposed identities stuck. A need for consistency and documentation made it so. Yes, I understand New World and Old World cultures. They are not so far apart as Old World imposed ideologies would make them. With the exception Old World patronymic naming conventions are fixed by a need for identity documentation.

Anyway, option four, some from column A, some from column B, some from column C. Column A, pragmatic Native American names readily readable and for verisimilitude's benefits, with a backmatter guide. Column B, literal translations. Column C, proximal translations.

Option five, some from column A for prominent personages and places, some from column B and C for lesser and invented personages and places.
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Re: Pronunciation Guides in Novels

Post by sarahdee » March 14th, 2011, 1:15 am

Yes, put the guide in. At worst people won't read and will use their own pronunciation. I like 'extras' at the beginning of books (maps being a particular fave) and I like to learn something new when I read a book. So if it had a pronunciation guide I would read it and no doubt sit there saying the words aloud :)

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Re: Pronunciation Guides in Novels

Post by CharleeVale » March 14th, 2011, 2:04 am

Personally, I hate pronunciation guides. They make me feel like I'm too stupid to figure out the words. Maybe I'm an academic, but I prefer an asterisk with a foot note.

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Re: Pronunciation Guides in Novels

Post by Sommer Leigh » March 14th, 2011, 8:59 am

This is a tough call for me. On one hand, I would hate to see you take away the names with so much meaning to your story that are real and not impossible fantasy names. I appreciate culture richness in my reading.

On the other hand, because of the way I read, difficult to pronounce names can destroy a reading experience for me. I "read out loud" in my head. I don't know how other people do it, but it sounds sort of like an audio file in my brain when I read, and when I can't pronounce a name I'm pulled out of the story every time I stumble through it. There becomes this distance between me and that character and I find it very difficult to close that distance and become emotionally invested in them. It's not such a big deal if we are talking secondary characters, but for main characters this can be a deal breaker for me to even finish reading.

I should say, however, that most of the time when I run up against this problem it is in fantasy novels and the names are made up and mean absolutely nothing to me. They don't draw on any experience or knowledge I already have. Foreign names and names in another language are a little different. I recognize the culture they come from and the name then has meaning.

I don't know that a pronunciation guide would help. I've found books I've read that had guides in them but I didn't even realize it until the very end of the book. I would try to make it easy on the reader as possible while still capturing the intent of your story.
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Re: Pronunciation Guides in Novels

Post by Beethovenfan » March 14th, 2011, 1:11 pm

Wow. There's such a disparity in the responses that I'm still not sure what I'm going to do. But you given me a lot to consider.

As it stand right now I have been spelling the names and words out as phonetically as possible, but sometimes even that gets in the way. My main character's name is Nahavita, which is not really all that difficult to say. But another word, oonipitz, pronounced ooneepeets, is a little harder. For the sake of being consistent I have been spelling Nahavita as Nahaveeta. Then, some of them have an apostrophe to indicate a glottal stop before continuing - Soovoo'it. Don't really know of any other way to indicate that.

AARGH! What to do, what to do!
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Re: Pronunciation Guides in Novels

Post by Guardian » March 14th, 2011, 2:28 pm

Beethovenfan. I believe these names can live without a guide anytime. It's similar to my ones what I'm using, such as Nizhoni which is pronounced as Nihszohnee or Nishonee, and no one ever complained. So I believe you can live without a guide, but you may add it if you want as a plus. By the way, I like the name Nahavita. May I ask what does it mean and where from it is originating, from which tribe?
I"ve been given dozens of nicknames throughout my life. New circumstances, new names. Some I didn't care for and had to live down. None have been anything particularly endearing, except Mother's personal nickname for me. It's sacred. My spirit name remains a secret.
You said the magic word here... nickname. New circumstances, new nicknames. But your true spirit name has never changed. Although it's good to know that you've Native American origin. Thank you for telling it. I love Native American culture.
Anyway, option four, some from column A, some from column B, some from column C. Column A, pragmatic Native American names readily readable and for verisimilitude's benefits, with a backmatter guide. Column B, literal translations. Column C, proximal translations.
This is a good option. You give the true form, the translated form A and B and the pronounciation.

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Re: Pronunciation Guides in Novels

Post by DanielaTorre » March 14th, 2011, 4:39 pm

I was reading in the ALL THINGS BOOKS part of the forums under character names we don't like. Someone mentioned that if you have to have a pronunciation guide in order to get through the names that perhaps the names should be changed. I am in the middle of a historical fiction that uses a LOT of Native American words and names. I recently had my husband read through some chapters and he suggested that I have a pronunciation guide.

All the names I've used are real, or in other words, I did not make them up. I hate to change them because the names give meaning to the characters, but I also don't want to shoot myself in the foot before I've had a chance to even aim at the target.

So. What do you all think? Do I need to re-think all the names, or should I go ahead with the pronunciation guide? Or perhaps there's a third option I've not thought of?
OMG, Beethovenfan, I didn't mean to make you doubt your manuscript when I said that. It's a pet peeve of mine. When I mentioned my personal distaste for pronunciation guides, I was referring to a specific genre where the names and places have been made up by the author themselves.

Real names are a different issue. If you're basing your fiction on actual historical events, then it is absolutely necessary that you keep the names or else it simply becomes fiction instead of historical fiction, which is what you're aiming for.

In regards to the adding of a pronunciation guide at the end of the book, well then that's just a personal choice.

THIRD OPTION: Make a pronunciation guide just in case. I think it's ultimately up to the publisher to decide whether they believe your book needs one or not.
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Re: Pronunciation Guides in Novels

Post by polymath » March 14th, 2011, 5:20 pm

Nahavita didn't feel Native American to me. I did some investigating and it's apparently also an existing Malagasy past tense verb conjugate similar to English to be in usage. Not that it matters, I guess. Just something I would ordinarily do if I was a reader, look up unfamiliar terms for their roots and origins and pronounciations. And something I do with nonstandard words in general when writing, look them up for denotative and connotative meanings and see if invented terms have correlations in other languages in order to avoid undesirable associations.

Pronounciation stumblers from Aztec mythology: Huitzilopochtli, Left-handed Hummingbird. Quetzalcohuātl, Feathered Serpent. Chalchiuhtlicue, She of the Jade Skirt. Coyolxauhqui, Face Painted with Bells. Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli, Lord of the Dawn. Macuiltochtli, Five Rabbits.

When in doubt about a writing decision that largely goes against the grain, lacks for insight from external guidance, or a hunch something's off kilter or inaccessible to readers, I establish a set of self-imposed rules and abide them. Like in this circumstance and an overall general rule of mine, Will the choice disturb the all-important participation mystique? If so, recast. If it enhances the participation mystique, stet, or let it stand.
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Re: Pronunciation Guides in Novels

Post by Beethovenfan » March 15th, 2011, 1:56 am

OMG, Beethovenfan, I didn't mean to make you doubt your manuscript when I said that. It's a pet peeve of mine. When I mentioned my personal distaste for pronunciation guides, I was referring to a specific genre where the names and places have been made up by the author themselves.

Real names are a different issue. If you're basing your fiction on actual historical events, then it is absolutely necessary that you keep the names or else it simply becomes fiction instead of historical fiction, which is what you're aiming for.
I think it was a great thing to bring up, though. You got me thinking, which is always a good thing! I am similar to others that have said that difficult names get in their way. Anyway, I am leaning toward the pronunciation guide, but still considering.
By the way, I like the name Nahavita. May I ask what does it mean and where from it is originating, from which tribe?
From what research I have done it is the name of a type of wild hyacinth that grows in the desert regions of Nevada and Arizona. I am writing about the Paiutes, specifically those around the Las Vegas area, and I chose it because it is a tradition for the Paiutes to name their daughters after flowers.
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