Professional Manuscript Critiques and Page Spacing

[polymath]

Pre digital age typewritten manuscripts with two spaces after terminal punctuation were a no-brainer for typesetters setting from SMF to publication format's one space. The instruction to close up one space wasn't even needed on a style sheet let alone marked on a manuscript. That's the way it was.

Anymore, publishing bean counters and software designers are dictating manuscript format to their liking. Publishers love love digital submissions because they don't need typesetters nor have to pay for the expenses of hot and cold lead typesetting anymore. Still, it's a layout editor's process or an instruction to a writer to do a simple global search for two spaces and replace with one for a digital submission in contemplation of acquisition for publication.

If it's to be a digital publication, not even that is necessary. HTML ignores sequential white spaces. Margo's posts for example, she types two spaces after terminal punctuation yet the displayed post only shows one. If a digital publisher wants to preserve multiple white spaces, there's several character entities for that: nonbreaking space, en-space, and em-space. But they're not often necessary.

A narrative's merits are still the deciding factor, not spacing nor a few typos or other overlooked minor style thingies.

[Margo]

I don't know, Margo. I'm older than you are...

Are you sure? I'm pretty old. Older than cell phones. ;)

and I finally made the change. Not saying it wasn't a challenge, but somewhere awhile ago I heard that the single space was preferred so I started using it. Still have to do the "find and replace" when I edit though.

I'm relieved to know I can write naturally with two spaces and use the replace to change it, if I must. I'd rather not, because I think there are quite a few cases in a typical ms where the single space would be messy and/or confusing. Of course, ya gotta do what ya gotta do. I just hope I don't gotta.

[Margo]

Margo's posts for example, she types two spaces after terminal punctuation yet the displayed post only shows one.

And she feels entirely cheated. Gimme back my spaces, internets. [shakes her tiny fist]

[Guardian]

One last thing, Margo. I'd like to take up a question (Others may answer this too.). Beware, it's a catch 22. :) My respected lit. teacher in high school always asked one thing from my class (Question below). She always gave two marks for each of our writings, each of our stories. One for the story and one for the grammar. And no one ever reached A+ and A+ in both. Even if you gave your best, one of the marks from the two was weaker then the other one. And it was natural. So her questions was; as a writer, what is your primary responsibility?

1. To tell a story to your readers.
2. To provide a good grammar.

You can choose only one from the two options and you can't choose both. The catch 22 is; the two can't exist without the other one, just as you said... but, you always must and will care with one the most, while you must sacrifice the other, even if not significantly, to give the best in your choice.

[Down the well]

Down the well wrote:
I don't know, Margo. I'm older than you are...


Are you sure? I'm pretty old. Older than cell phones. ;)

Unfortunately I can remember the first push-button landline we got when I was a kid. It was almost as awesome as Pong.

So her questions was; as a writer, what is your primary responsibility?

Story is king. And commas are just mutant little pawns that don't know when to break up my clauses. *grin*

[polymath]

Margo's posts for example, she types two spaces after terminal punctuation yet the displayed post only shows one.

And she feels entirely cheated. Gimme back my spaces, internets. [shakes her tiny fist]

They're still in the source code. Try copying and pasting into a different app. Voilà. Note how I beat the Internets with en- and em-spaces?  Bam!  Bam!   Take that you software fiends!

 

[Margo]

You can choose only one from the two option and you can't choose both.

I fear you shall hate my response, Guardian. I don't agree with your teacher.

I think grammar is one of the tools used to produce the good story, so they must be of equal importance. When producing a work of art in another media, woodworking for instance (nudging polymath), what is most important? The quality of the wood? The quality of the tools? The steadiness of the artist's hands? The quality or shade of stain? I recall from my painting days that the type of canvas, type of paint, type of brush, type of stoke, and the vision of the artist - even the temperature in the room - made a difference. I see writing in the same holistic fashion and value each tool equally.

The caveat to this would be that there are times when a fiction writer uses an intentional twist of grammar to convey something, in dialogue or to produce dissonance. I suspect your teacher would consider that a mark off grammar. I would not.

[Margo]

And commas are just mutant little pawns that don't know when to break up my clauses. *grin*

Comma hatas gotta hate, playa.

:)

They're still in the source code. Try copying and pasting into a different app. Violà. Note how I beat the Internets with en- and em-spaces?  Bam!  Bam!   Take that you software fiends!

 

Eeee! Cool! It's like watching The Matrix.

[Guardian]

Story is king. And commas are just mutant little pawns that don't know when to break up my clauses. *grin*

:)

Polymath. I believe you're missing the point. Here are two examples from those classes where I understood why she said this... these were two different classes, right after each other on two different days.

#1. I put every effort into the story, just as she asked all of us. The marks were: A+ for story and A for grammar. The story was great, the class loved it, but there were few typos, missing commas. I still remember for that story after all these years. It was a sci-fi; City on the Saturn's Ring. Even the teacher loved it, while she always hated sci-fi.

#2. I put every effort into the grammar, just as she asked all of us. The marks were: B/C for story and A+ for grammar. The story was quite weaker than the previous one, because I spent most of my time to watch for the grammar, instead of focusing on the story, imagining the world and the characters. And unlike the other one, after all these years, I can't remember what this story was. The only thing what for I remember... the grammar was great and I got my first, and presumably my very last A+ for grammar at Mrs. Reaper's class (Yep. Reaper was her true name. It's not a nickname. But it described her perfectly. She was cruel, but I loved that teacher.).

Up from that moment, there were two different types of people in our class. One who usually got A and A+ for the stories, while they got weaker marks for the grammar. And the other one, who got A and A+ for grammar, but they always got weaker mark for their stories. I usually was in the first type. Mrs. Reaper even gave me some Fs few times, while I got A and A+ for stories, just to give me a lesson to learn the proper balance between story and grammar (This is where from my balance mania is originating. :) But as I written above, no one was capable to achieve the same mark in both.).

But this was the moment when I understood, if I want to write better stories, I must sacrifice the other one, even if just a little bit to make the other one better. Balance is necessary, but as a writer, I must choose story over grammar (Just a little bit.).

[polymath]

My respected lit. teacher in high school always asked one thing from my class (Question below). She always gave two marks for each of our writings, each of our stories. One for the story and one for the grammar. And no one ever reached A+ and A+ in both. Even if you gave your best, one of the marks from the two was weaker then the other one. And it was natural. So her questions was; as a writer, what is your primary responsibility?

1. To tell a story to your readers.
2. To provide a good grammar.

You can choose only one from the two options and you can't choose both. The catch 22 is; the two can't exist without the other one, just as you said... but, you always must and will care with one the most, while you must sacrifice the other, even if not significantly, to give the best in your choice.

Who says I can't choose both? High school English teachers have the dual obligations of reinforcing rigidly prescriptive grammar principles and fostering persuasive writing. I had college professors who also graded on both style and writing. Lo and behold, I did get high marks on both because I made the efforts to figure out each's individual style quirks and compose persuasive arguments. Even the prescriptive formalists were putty in my hands.

One in particular was a little harder than the others. She favored the MLA Formal Rules neutral gender masculine pronouns for impersonal usages. No impersonal feminine pronouns allowed, period. No nonnumbered plural pronouns, period. She remarked in class one day that she'd been brought up that way through to postgraduate matriculation and that's the way it was, no socially conscious decorum alternatives allowed. I found it a bit odd, since she was an avowed feminist, that she insisted on masculine pronoun usages. Then it struck me in time to not affect my grades. She liked the idea of neutered masculine pronouns. Emasculation. I got a chuckle out of that and moved on.

[Guardian]

Who says I can't choose both?

I've written an example above to understand why she said this. When you're writing a story and trying to imagine it, people usually giving less focus on the grammar (Even if it's natural, you know the grammar inside out and you're typing perfectly.). If you focus on the grammar, you're already disturbed by it to imagine the story itself in your mind. You can imagine and write the story, give life to your characters, try to create perfect characteristics for them. Or you can watch the grammar. Usually writers can't do both (At least not on 100%. One of them will be always weaker.). That's my point and that's what my teacher wanted to show us with these examples. She was right. One of the two (Story or grammar) will be always better then the other one (Even with a minor difference). The question is which one?

I fear you shall hate my response, Guardian. I don't agree with your teacher.

Nope. That's not going to happen. :) I always respected your opinion. I just experienced this part on a bit different way then you.

[polymath]

Who says I can't choose both?

I written an example above to understand why she said this. When you're writing a story and trying to imagine it, people usually giving less focus on the grammar (Even if it's natural, knows the grammar inside out and you're typing perfectly.). If you focus on the grammar, you're already disturbed by it to imagine the story itself in your mind. You're imagine and writing the story, giving life to your characters, trying to create perfect characteristics for them or you're watching for the grammar. Usually writers can't do both. That's my point and that's what my teacher wanted to show us with these examples.

At some point in a writer's career there comes a moment of clarity recognizing the so-called rules are a product of a consensus agreement formulated over time, yet changing as living language lives. Sometimes they're principles agreed upon by a unanimous consensus. Not too rarely though. Oftentimes they're principles agreed upon by a majority consensus, maybe a minority consensus, maybe there's no agreement at all.

My high school English teachers couldn't agree on the serial comma, downstyle punctuation, downstyle capitalization, hypenation and word compounding, or general assignment formating. In college the style expectations were even more disparate. It was in an editing course where the lightbulb came on. Reading style manuals, dictionaries, and usage dictionaries for class assignments I noted a nonimperative voice prevailed. There's where I learned there's a prescriptive standard and a descriptive standard. Actually, the prescriptive standard is as much a personal choice as a descriptive standard is. Any two given prescriptive formalists will disagree on many discrete grammar principles. The only meaningful principle worth prescribing is the ability to persuasively and effectively share ideas.

It's mine to choose how I chart my course, my narratives, my life, my destiny. No one can do my thinking best for me. I can choose to deviate for good rhetorical effect and still effectively communicate ideas. If the communication is ineffective, I can also choose to revise accordingly. Anyway, I never much strived for grades for the pure sake of the grades. And, you know what, the grades were excellent anyhow.

I'm reminded of communication experiences of very young children. In my early childhood I often interpretted my younger siblings' expressions for my parents. We still shared the thought processes of early childhood and shared a mutually developed nonsensical but interpretable language. They weren't beaten out of me by prescriptive formalists yet. I've seen the same interactions of my succeeding family generations. One of the more touching experiences was the twins who learned sign language before they were able to vocalize their thoughts, before their control of their vocal chords had sufficiently developed to use spoken language. They'd talk in their shared language to each other with nonverbal utterances and indecipherable gestures and facial expressions, then speak to grown-ups with their hands. Fascinating and endearing stuff.

[Margo]

I just experienced this part on a bit different way then you.

Interesting, isn't it? The number of ways the human brain can conceptualize the same act.

Then it struck me in time to not affect my grades.

LOL. I approached this in an entirely different way, perhaps because my parents let me argue my point when I disagreed with them over something (which horrified my aunts and uncles) and because I was a little left of center personality-wise. If a teacher had given me the question Guardian had described on a test, I would have used my No.2 pencil to write, under the given choices:

C) Neither; both are equally important.

Depending on the teacher, I might have written a paragraph in the margin in support of my argument. And about 80% of the time, the teacher would have given me full credit for the response. Part of it was my ability to articulate my reasoning and part of it was the mystique I had cultivated as a rebel genius (when I was actually neither).

I'm going to have to write a character one of these days based on the character I played in high school.

My high school English teachers couldn't agree on the serial comma, downstyle punctuation, downstyle capitalization, hypenation and word compounding, or general assignment formating.

They should have asked me. ;)

[polymath]

They should have asked me. ;)

They wouldn't have, nor would they have accepted anyone else's choice but their own stubborn, irreproachable authority.

Take the color name gray or grey. One a main U.S. variant, the other the main British variant. I think my high school teacher who dictated grey was most proper because it was the first moden English spelling intended his unwavering approach as a test and a teaching opportunity. I finally got it decades later. His intent was to show in spite of prescriptive principles there's always persuasive alternatives. He wasn't an anglophile. He was a rebel. Anyway, though gray is still the main U.S. variant it's losing ground and used about a third of the time in recently published U.S. prose. What does a variant usage say? About a writer? About a narrative? About a narrative's narrative point of view and narrative voice? What's intended, I hope.

[ajcattapan]

Wow! I had no idea when I posted this thread what kind of response I would get. Thanks to everyone who's commented.

I thought I'd elaborate a bit more based on the responses.

First, my "errors" in the text were not grammar errors (not spelling, not punctuation, not capitalization); they were simply spacing issues. I'm an English teacher. I've also worked as a proofreader, so I check my work very carefully. In fact, I consider myself an old-school grammarian. I was taught by Catholic nuns, if that gives you any idea. :) And yes, I would agree that major grammar errors can distract from a good story. I see it with my students' writing from time to time. That, however, was not the case with the thirty pages I submitted for critique. An extra space at the end of a sentence shouldn't distract from a story.

Second, someone questioned whether or not my reviewer was actually a professional. Here is what the conference's website promises: "For $50 you can get the first 30 pages of your novel critiqued by a professional editor who'll give you helpful insight and suggestions as you work toward finishing your masterpiece." That's what was promised, but like I stated in my first post, the name of the "professional editor" has yet to be revealed to me.

Third, someone commented that for $50, he or she would expect at least 250 words. I got 150 words. Here they are, word for word, with the reviewer's capitalization. I did not change anything.

"Nice start.

I’m not at all sure where it’s going, and I find Cozy’s reaction to both the knife and her dealing with the body to be a bit iffy. But perhaps workable, although you’ll need to ensure she stays in character throughout the rest of the book, and naivety is a hard act to maintain, not least given her age.

You need to get your act together when it comes to spacing between sentences, and stop putting spaces at the beginning and end of paragraphs. You’d also be better off, usually, to stick with single spacing between sentences.

In today’s markets, right or wrong, PRESENTATION IS EVERYTHING! Which means you need to proof your work extensively before submission. Before it goes to anyone, agent or editor, your manuscript should be PERFECT IN YOUR OWN EYES. However, as I said before, this is a really nice start. Good job ☺"

The comments within the text itself were all deleted extra spaces, with the exception of one comment at the beginning.

Am I right in feeling like I got ripped off? I'm attending just one of the three days of this conference next week. I hope the conference itself is better than this critique.

One more thing--someone suggested beta readers. I did find a great beta reader in this forum a month ago. She was much more helpful than this "professional editor." :)