(Un)Realistic young character dialogue

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Guardian
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Re: (Un)Realistic young character dialogue

Post by Guardian » January 9th, 2011, 10:10 am

Guardian, if THAT is what you intend, then I really don't see reason of question at all.
I do as not humble me should be the target audience. If the audience don't understand something, regardless what I intended to present, in this case, that's my fault. Here my intentions is maybe not that clear with this dialogue sequence.
It's your art work.
True, but an artist I also must make everything clear, be it a graphic art or a novel as not I'm the target audience.
The only thing I can say, is that when young children mimick parents they might mess up at certain words or things.
So true. :)
Always keep in mind that everyone's opinion will be opinionated.
True, but if I don't meditate on the words of my beta readers, I shouldn't ask their opinion in the first place. Every beta reader is said something what they liked or in rare cases, didn't like. And if they don't like something, as I'm the writer, I must search the root for those mistakes, because it's not the reader's fault, but rather my one. And if the same goal, the same scenario can be solved on a different way, while I can keep the original idea, I'll try to make that part clearer.

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polymath
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Re: (Un)Realistic young character dialogue

Post by polymath » January 9th, 2011, 12:28 pm

Lewis Carroll's Alice's Adventures in Wonderland characterizes Alice as a precocious observer child and the narrator mediates from closer to her age in mannerisms. It's a narrator's voice of an adult affectedly speaking patronymically as if to a child.

The examples given of concern about dialogue age appropriateness I feel relate equally to the wrapping narrator context and the dialogue diction. I think it's again a matter of unsettled narrative point of view, albeit much subtler than previous concerns about recited information deposits, and perhaps caused by a fixed and immutable narrator viewpoint. Which might perhaps raise a similar concern; that the whole is pervasively similar in voice between narrator mediating and viewpoint character dialogue and thoughts. In other words, a fixed sameness of narrative voice and character voices across all characters' viewpoints and circumstances.

The smaller bits of the youngster's dialogue are comparatively easy adjustments. One, recast into a credible child's voice. Of particular note, the child's abstract connection between dreams and fantasies is in my opinion a bit too mature for even a precocious seven-year-old human. That level of abstract thinking doesen't develop until about the age of twelve and then perhaps not sufficiently yet for that degree of comparative abstract analogy.

However, as has been previously indicated, the milieu is not contemporary Earth-normal. That then allows for a potential second adjustment related to the first, which in any case could pass unremarked if the child's precocious personality and intelligence are prepositioned. I would not find it incredible if she were educated in the fashion of Colonial era education philosophy. Children then were treated more like adults than they are today. Educational expectations led to an onerous learning burden. Once a child safely passed the childhood disease stage, they were considered ready to begin focused preparations for their birthright calling.

The second potential adjustment consideration is the diction of the child might be recast into a characterizing trait. Children of that age mimic words they learn from adults. They know the words' pronunciations but are naive about their connotative subtleties. They tend to test them in various contexts, often awkwardly, sometimes in a manner revealing greater truths as if with idiot savant-like intelligence. Also they tend to mix them in with clearly well-understood words such that their meaning is clear but with the adult words standing out as seeming non sequiturs, typically of note, three-, or more, syllable words like fantasy. Yet the more erudite words' singular contexts as used echo an adult's singular and affective denotative usage.
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Re: (Un)Realistic young character dialogue

Post by Sommer Leigh » January 9th, 2011, 1:03 pm

Guardian wrote:
but then that depends on how she is raised.
This was the primary reason why I created the dialogues on this way, to present she has a really good background and she was raised well.
a little LESS adultish it might help you out and help the readers feel like she IS a seven year old.
Less adultish could be good, but sometimes children are acting like their parents, especially if they want to be like them. This is what I wanted to highlight in that scenario. A talented, well raised and intelligent girl who is a bit smarter then a normal seven years old.

Here is another little something to think about - usually when a child is trying to act their parents, they get it a little big wrong. And this imitation can be amusing with its understandable imperfections. I don't know how to translate this exactly, but it was just a thought I had.
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Re: (Un)Realistic young character dialogue

Post by Watcher55 » January 9th, 2011, 1:29 pm

A seven year old’s perspective, no matter how well educated, is always much more simplistic than an adult’s. They are still learning the subtleties of language and thought. Seven year olds are bigger on the inside. They sense potential but they can’t define it so they can’t predict it. Everything is based on introspection (you have a good start there with the keeping it to herself attitude) that’s only educated by limited exposure to “The World”.

Perhaps if you looked at her relationship to her “teachers” (Dad, Mom, brother, sister, uncle and anyone else she interacts with), and asked the question: “Is she 7 as compared to their 35 or 10 or 1,293?”

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Re: (Un)Realistic young character dialogue

Post by bcomet » January 9th, 2011, 6:03 pm

Oh I Love this question and discussion!

I recently read Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card, involving highly intelligent (many moreso than the adults) children, especially the mc.

I am in the second book (A Hat Full of Sky) about a precocious child witch in the Wee Free Men series by Terry Pratchett.

In both books, (and in many of the best child protagonist books, in my humble opinion,) the child is wiser than other children and often perceptive in ways that few adults can fathom. It makes for an interesting character, dilemma, and tension and can be compelling.

I love children that stand above the fray in literature. Otherwise they would need adults to speak and save them. It creates a much more intriguing world when the child has to fend for him/herself.

~~

On the other hand, there is a (lovely and well intended to do right by her characters) person in one of my writing groups who always has her fictional children talk baby-talk and it's a real BIG turn-off. I find those baby-talk voices tedious, condescending, and sentimental on the writer's part.

~~

I have a WiP that takes place in Eastern Europe in the eighteen-hundreds wherein the children speak a very different dialect. I had to go with my gut. It was different. It felt true to these characters and how they spoke. They not only spoke more formally, they used "sayings" that I made up. Really odd ones too. But to me this was how the characters spoke.

The first readers were thrown by a middle (isolated) chapter with this dialect. But those who read from the beginning quickly adapted to the dialect and style of speaking these two children have. Then, when they came back to the middle chapter, it no longer confused or bothered them. They were into the ways the characters speak. They even complimented it, thought I'd channeled it.

~~

There will always be some readers who just can't follow someone's speech that far out of their own understanding of speech. Others will catch on.

My experience with Betas is that if three or more (who are also experienced in your style and genre) raise questions, then listen closer.
But it seems that the majority of your Betas have had no problem.

~~

From the example you gave, I had no problems.
(But I think Polymath has an important point about paying attention for settled/unsettled narrative - and am still learning about that issue myself.)
Best of luck.

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Re: (Un)Realistic young character dialogue

Post by Guardian » January 10th, 2011, 10:42 am

I have a WiP that takes place in Eastern Europe in the eighteen-hundreds wherein the children speak a very different dialect.
I can confirm that. I'm from Central (Or Eastern) Europe and here, even nowadays the children are speaking with very different dialects. i.e. there is a huge difference between someone who was raised in a city and someone who was raised in a village.
My experience with Betas is that if three or more (who are also experienced in your style and genre) raise questions, then listen closer. But it seems that the majority of your Betas have had no problem.
The majority have had no problems, but as the minority have had problems, I also want to meditate how to involve them and grab them with the story. Maybe only a minor change is necessary to achieve this goal.
But I think Polymath has an important point about paying attention for settled/unsettled narrative - and am still learning about that issue myself.
Polymath is right about that. But sometimes a settled narrative seems unsettled, because you want to avoid the heavy overuse "she watched", "she looked", "she said", etc, etc... (Here, in the example dialogue the story is presented via the little girl's POV). So I must figure out a method how to present these parts without overusing these "she did this and that" elements.

“What have you dreamt about this time, little one?” she (her mother) asked. (Narrative description settled to her mother instead of the girl's POV, but here I used it to avoid "her mother". But maybe this part can be solved without any tags.)
“My dreams are my fantasies, mother,” defiant and secretive the little girl said even though her soul yearned to share her strange, vivid dream with her, but not now, maybe later. (Half-settled to the girl's POV)
Grace looked around the large room. The wooden bed on the other side was empty. (Settled to the girl's POV)
“Has Aurora awakened already?” She turned to her mother. (Settled to the girl's POV)

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Re: (Un)Realistic young character dialogue

Post by polymath » January 10th, 2011, 2:50 pm

Guardian wrote:
bcomet wrote:But I think Polymath has an important point about paying attention for settled/unsettled narrative - and am still learning about that issue myself.
Polymath is right about that. But sometimes a settled narrative seems unsettled, because you want to avoid the heavy overuse "she watched", "she looked", "she said", etc, etc... (Here, in the example dialogue the story is presented via the little girl's POV). So I must figure out a method how to present these parts without overusing these "she did this and that" elements.
In this case, I mean unsettled from being too settled. An invariant narrative voice no matter how dramatic the action and spectacular the spectacle feels to me like a recitation from a podium, opening narrative distance by at least one, perhaps undesirable degree more of separation than I think is a best practice.

This is a voice thing, one of the more, if not most subjective qualities of narrative arts. Although hardest to learn, difficult to teach, if at all possible, voice nonetheless has some basic objective parameters. Ironies, attitudes, and narrator estranging metaphors which favor viewpoint character viewpoints are a few that can be learned, taught, and developed methodically.

However, a minority consensus literary subculture remains staunch in prefering a healthy degree of open narrative distance so that readers may exercise their conscious, critical thinking faculties without getting totally swept up by exotic participation mystique spectacles. Literature of the ad hominem emotional appeal kind might tend to favor group think pageantries over logical thinking, and, well, if there's beneficial outcomes for society from literature, fostering conscientious thinking for one's self might be one of the more important if frequently overlooked purposes.
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Re: (Un)Realistic young character dialogue

Post by Guardian » January 10th, 2011, 5:48 pm

In this case, I mean unsettled from being too settled. An invariant narrative voice no matter how dramatic the action and spectacular the spectacle feels to me like a recitation from a podium, opening narrative distance by at least one, perhaps undesirable degree more of separation than I think is a best practice.
Thank you very much for your explanation. I believe I understand now.
However, a minority consensus literary subculture remains staunch in prefering a healthy degree of open narrative distance so that readers may exercise their conscious, critical thinking faculties without getting totally swept up by exotic participation mystique spectacles.
The bold underlined part is what I'd like to achieve, both together instead of separating them. The second part is already existing all over the WIP. This is where the detailed world building is coming into the picture as exotic and mystique spectacles. That part is working fine. The problem is the first part now. But as I meditated on it in the last few days I believe I can achieve the desired first part too with the rework of the dialogues and the characters. Well, let's hope so. Then we'll see how this mix is going to work out. I must admit, it's a real challenge.

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Re: (Un)Realistic young character dialogue

Post by polymath » January 10th, 2011, 7:16 pm

Guardian wrote:The bold underlined part is what I'd like to achieve, both together instead of separating them. The second part is already existing all over the WIP. This is where the detailed world building is coming into the picture as exotic and mystique spectacles. That part is working fine. The problem is the first part now. But as I meditated on it in the last few days I believe I can achieve the desired first part too with the rework of the dialogues and the characters. Well, let's hope so. Then we'll see how this mix is going to work out. I must admit, it's a real challenge.
Then if I may offer suggestions. I think you're already grasping the edge of the idea by having a somewhat overt over-narrator mediating the action and an internal narrator as oracle messenger and multiple viewpoint characters firsthand experiencing the action. For closer narrative distance, in spite of having an over narrator, and its ability to engage readers intimately in a participation mystique, vary the narrator's presence by bringing the narrator forward for opening narrative distance and pulling the narrator out of the way for closing narrative distance, and distinguish the viewpoint characters' voices, traits, personalities, and viewpoints from each other and from the narrator's.

That way the narrator maintains a healthy narrative distance as circumstances necessitate and readers can engage intimately in the participation mystique through the narrator, yet have closest rapport with the protagonist as reader surrogate.
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Re: (Un)Realistic young character dialogue

Post by Guardian » January 10th, 2011, 7:33 pm

I think you're already grasping the edge of the idea by having a somewhat overt over-narrator mediating the action and multiple viewpoint characters firsthand experiencing the action.
Thank you for your advice. But there is a difference.... I'm using one POV all over the story. The POV of the heroine (And in the narrative parts, the POV of the storyteller. But the two is never appearing in the same time.). This is making it a bit difficult, but also easier at few places. The firsthand action is the essence, to give the very same feeling what the heroine is feeling all over the story (The reader is knowing only what the MC does. No more. What the MC is hearing, seeing, feeling, the reader will know only these things.). This is how I can give, translate and tell unique battle experience and "character life experience" for the readers (The battle parts are working fine because of this, regardless they're longer then in most fantasy novels. The battle parts are like the series "24". Events occur in real time. The difference is, the events are presented only from one POV, from the heroine's POV.).
by bringing the narrator forward for opening narrative distance and pulling the narrator out of the way for closing narrative distance, and distinguish the viewpoint characters' voices, traits, personalities, and viewpoints from each other and from the narrator's.
And this is the very essence, just with one POV instead of multiple viewpoints. Partially it's working fine, especially in battle scenes which are became the best scenes, based on the reviews. I'm just trying to make the other half work, where the action is slowing down (Pacing problem appears in this case, because of the very same narrative.).
That way the narrator maintains a healthy narrative distance as circumstances necessitate and readers can engage intimately in the participation mystique through the narrator, yet have closest rapport with the protagonist as reader surrogate.
This is what I'd like to achieve, from one, the heroine's POV all over the story (Two if we count the storyteller's POV.).

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Re: (Un)Realistic young character dialogue

Post by polymath » January 10th, 2011, 8:13 pm

There's a common perception that a totally covert over-narrator isn't an integral persona of narrative. Take the Harry Potter saga as example. It fits Seymour Chatman's definition of a nonnarrated narrative. Readers mostly engage through intended reader surrogate Potter's character viewpoint. The narrator is all but invisible to the point the narrator is totally disregarded by readers.

However, though Rowling wrote the saga, there's an invisible narrator mediating the action without overtly expressing commentary. The narrator shows who's in focus, follows a best practice of when to summarize, when to explain, when to show, when to tell, when to close in, when to pull back. Yes, Rowling is the decision-maker, but she's a remote persona not anywhere close to the firsthand action as experienced mostly from Potter's immediate perspective through the closer to the action, invisible, bystanding narrator's viewpont.

A covert narrator is that storytelling persona who readers engage through in a narrative. By way of a cinema analogy, Rowling is the real author and, after filming, the film editor, the screenwriter is the implied author, the director is the covert narrator, and the camera person is readers' viewpoint of Harry's viewpoint. They all drop away though, except for Harry, through the magic of narrative arts.

Even first person narratives have an over narrator. Some imagined covert persona must intervene and mediate between readers, author, and viewpoint character narrator. Otherwise, a female author writing a first person male narrator-character would defy logic. It becomes even more illogical from some other being narrating.

An intervening over narrator is an overlooked but fundamental persona in a fiction narrative. Without that persona, willing suspension of disbelief is in jeapordy from the first word and would then need to be restored once it's broken.The factual illogic would jar readers' comfort zones. And not suprisingly, over narrators are one of the few aspects that distinguishes fiction narratives from creative nonfiction narratives. In the latter, readers connect directly through the writer persona as narrator persona as somehow factually connected to the action.
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Re: (Un)Realistic young character dialogue

Post by Guardian » January 10th, 2011, 8:37 pm

Readers mostly engage through intended reader surrogate Potter's character viewpoint.
Mostly, but not always. This is the difference as in my WIP, the readers engaging always via the MCs POV (3rd person presentation, sometimes 1st, depends on the action).
A covert narrator is that storytelling persona who readers engage through in a narrative.
I believe I can see what you're saying. Again, the tone will be the key, if I understand everything correctly.
By way of a cinema analogy, Rowling is the real author and, after filming, the film editor, the screenwriter is the implied author, the director is the covert narrator, and the camera person is readers' viewpoint of Harry's viewpoint. They all drop away though, except for Harry, through the magic of narrative arts.
As a former director and screenwriter I can understand this very well. Here, I'm putting the camera to my character's shoulder or close to her all over the storyline (Depending on the situation). The camera is following the MC whereever she goes. Sometimes the reader is getting a real close shot (Face, eyes, expressions, etc, etc... sometimes even 1st POV shots), sometimes the perspective is a bit wider and the reader can see the entire character and her action. But the focus is always on her and on the action what she is seeing via her eyes. So basically I'm trying to write, direct, edit the "movie" with one "almost fix" camera. In this case, my covert narrator is my one "camera".

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Re: (Un)Realistic young character dialogue

Post by polymath » January 10th, 2011, 9:14 pm

Guardian wrote: So basically I'm trying to write, direct, edit the "movie" with one "almost fix" camera. In this case, my covert narrator is my one "camera".
Yep, that's it, one camera, perhaps not as fixed as the cinema analogy might indicate. Perhaps sort of a spy eye camera as close to the main character-protagonist-hero-reader surrogate as circumstances necessitate, but able to push into her thoughts, or pull back and see the protagonist, the protagonist's setting, the external and internal scenes, so to speak, at will, from an objective, neutral, unbiased, noncommenting viewpoint? Verily, the prevailing strength of third person narration.
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Re: (Un)Realistic young character dialogue

Post by Guardian » January 10th, 2011, 10:04 pm

I believe I start to understand it. And presumably this will solve the last little glitches during the final rewrite. Thank you very much for your help, Polymath.

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Re: (Un)Realistic young character dialogue

Post by GeeGee55 » January 10th, 2011, 10:09 pm

“What have you dreamt about this time, little one?” she (her mother) asked.
“My dreams are my fantasies, mother,” defiant and secretive the little girl said even though her soul yearned to share her strange, vivid dream with her, but not now, maybe later.
Grace looked around the large room. The wooden bed on the other side was empty.
“Has Aurora awakened already?” She turned to her mother.

This is a most interesting conversation. Here's my humble opinion about the dialogue. It is not typical of modern characters - the mother's or the daughter's. Here's how a typical family might sound:

"What did you dream about, sweetie?" she asked.
Grace looked around the large room. The wooden bed on the other side was empty.
"Where's Aurora?" She turned to her mother.

You are not going for typical I understand - I just thought it might help to compare.

Also, it might help the reader if at some point another character notices the child's advanced verbal development. A friend of mind addressed the problem of his character's unusual dialogue by having another character remark that he talked like a textbook.

Good luck with your story.

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