competition may negatively affect creativity

News, trends, and the future of publishing
User avatar
AnimaDictio
Posts: 158
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 1:07 am
Contact:

Re: competition may negatively affect creativity

Post by AnimaDictio » July 19th, 2010, 7:44 am

HaydnsGabe wrote:I feel that constant push to get the work out into the world, not for money, but for what it can DO.
Me too! My #1 reason for writing is to join the public discourse. I want people to be effected by me and to respond.

User avatar
Mira
Posts: 1354
Joined: December 7th, 2009, 9:59 am
Contact:

Re: competition may negatively affect creativity

Post by Mira » July 20th, 2010, 10:54 am

kayemevans - thanks so much for the links! I really like her.
AnimaDictio wrote:
HaydnsGabe wrote:I feel that constant push to get the work out into the world, not for money, but for what it can DO.
Me too! My #1 reason for writing is to join the public discourse. I want people to be effected by me and to respond.
Me three! I want to try to help - there is so much suffering - I want to help, and I want to have impact.

HaydensGabe, I resonated to what you discussed about teaching creative writing. A friend tof mine talks about her friend. My friend thought her friend was the best writer she had ever read. That person gave writing up after going to a brutal MFA program. The competition and hostility made her doubt her own ability, and she left the field altogther. A very sad story.

I thought what you said about jealousy rang true. I'm not by nature a very jealous person, but I've found myself grappling with that more than once while going on different writing blogs. I think it's a trap that lurks for us writers....I'm thinking of starting another post just on that. I'd like to hear what people said.

I like what people are saying about treating writing as play, and trying not to care about the outcome. I do like competition around writing, when it's fun, but not for the works of my heart. For the works of my heart, low pressure works best, I think.

Margo
Posts: 1712
Joined: April 5th, 2010, 11:21 am
Contact:

Re: competition may negatively affect creativity

Post by Margo » July 20th, 2010, 11:14 am

What's interesting to me is not that competition might stifle creativity. It's the part about creativity being more important than technical improvement. Art over craft. Again. How shocking.

I too worshipped creativity above all else as a younger writer. Now I look back and see it for what it was (for me anyway): intellectual masturbation. The art was the part that felt good. Craft is work.

(Yeah, I know that comment is going to go over reeeeeal well, but it's not actually surprising coming from me, right?)

The best writing I did had creativity disciplined by craft. Art riding roughshod over craft lost me a writing contract. Rightly so.
Urban fantasy, epic fantasy, and hot Norse elves. http://margolerwill.blogspot.com/

User avatar
Mira
Posts: 1354
Joined: December 7th, 2009, 9:59 am
Contact:

Re: competition may negatively affect creativity

Post by Mira » July 20th, 2010, 1:05 pm

Margo - I don't think anyone is saying art is more important than craft. At least not on this thread. :)

But if you don't have the initial creation, there is nothing to craft. I think that's more what I'm getting that. Craft without creation is awfully hard to pull off.

However, I read a book once that there are two types of writers. One creates for 'art'. The other crafts for money, etc.

Both are fine. Neither is better than the other. The world can use both. And different writers have different goals. That's fine too, methinks.

Margo
Posts: 1712
Joined: April 5th, 2010, 11:21 am
Contact:

Re: competition may negatively affect creativity

Post by Margo » July 20th, 2010, 1:50 pm

Mira wrote:Margo - I don't think anyone is saying art is more important than craft. At least not on this thread. :)
I was specifically refering to "The conclusion was that extrinsic motivation can interfere with creativity, and intrinsic motivation is more important." (emphasis added)
Mira wrote:But if you don't have the initial creation, there is nothing to craft. I think that's more what I'm getting that. Craft without creation is awfully hard to pull off.
What I'm getting at is that creativity alone is not enough; it's a burst of energy that pleasures only the creator. In the context of children using art as an outlet, that's not a problem. In the context of writing, it's the difference between writing for oneself only (hence the comparison to pleasuring oneself) and writing as a profession (wherein there is a contractual obligation to think of your partner...er, audience).
Mira wrote:However, I read a book once that there are two types of writers. One creates for 'art'. The other crafts for money, etc.
I think the distinction goes a little further. Craft isn't just about money (etc?); it's about the very intentional manipulation of the reader experience (relations with another consenting adult). In that scenario the reader is a instrument of feeling. Art is more personal, and the reader might enjoy it (voyeurism), but the act of creation and how the artist experiences it (masturbation) is the primary focus. The artist is the instrument.

At least, this is how I experience it, having been one and now the other.
Mira wrote:Both are fine. Neither is better than the other. The world can use both. And different writers have different goals. That's fine too, methinks.
Agreed, but qualitative language seeps into this issue an awful lot. Some days I let it pass unchallenged. Some days I put in my two cents. Occasionally, I contribute my own qualitative language. Occasionally, the penny edges have been sharpened.
Urban fantasy, epic fantasy, and hot Norse elves. http://margolerwill.blogspot.com/

User avatar
Mira
Posts: 1354
Joined: December 7th, 2009, 9:59 am
Contact:

Re: competition may negatively affect creativity

Post by Mira » July 20th, 2010, 2:16 pm

Margo - Intrinsic motivation can be the desire to craft as well as the desire to create.

There was no deliberate attempt to leave crafters out of this post. Why so angry about this? At least you sound angry to me....But if you felt that as a crafter, you were slighted by this topic or post, I apologize. Not my intent. Although I will acknowledge that artists and crafters tend to devalue each other, that sure wasn't my goal here.

In terms of Art - for me - I don't think of creativity as intellectual masturbation. That doesn't really capture the creative process, which can have a transcendant experience to it - for me, at least. When art is truly profound it communicates not only a sort of voyeristic view, but a deeper connection to whatever is true about the human condition.

Surely you don't think that people shouldn't create art? Museums would have very bare walls, many wonderful films would never have been made, and many of our great novels wouldn't exist.

Surely you can allow those of us who write for art's sake to be proud of our work, just as those who craft for a profession are?

Margo
Posts: 1712
Joined: April 5th, 2010, 11:21 am
Contact:

Re: competition may negatively affect creativity

Post by Margo » July 20th, 2010, 2:36 pm

Mira wrote:Margo - Intrinsic motivation can be the desire to craft as well as the desire to create.
This is true, and that's an important distinction. My posts are really more of a tangent to the original topic of whether competition hurts creativity. It's that qualitative language at work again in the margins.
Mira wrote:There was no deliberate attempt to leave crafters out of this post. Why so angry about this? At least you sound angry to me....But if you felt that as a crafter, you were slighted by this topic or post, I apologize. Not my intent. Although I will acknowledge that artists and crafters tend to devalue each other, that sure wasn't my goal here.
I did not think this was your intent, nor am I angry. No apology necessary. When I find an issue frustrating and smack up against it repeatedly, I am more blunt, though. Online there is no way to tell blunt from tired from humorous from angry unless you know the person very well, usually irl.
Mira wrote:In terms of Art - for me - I don't think of creativity as intellectual masturbation. That doesn't really capture the creative process, which can have a transcendant experience to it - for me, at least. When art is truly profound it communicates not only a sort of voyeristic view, but a deeper connection to whatever is true about the human condition.
Agreed as well. The differences are not necessarily in outcome, though.
Mira wrote:Surely you don't think that people shouldn't create art? Museums would have very bare walls, many wonderful films would never have been made, and many of our great novels wouldn't exist.
LOL. Funny you would use museums as an example, as I was just complaining to you about the elitist attitude exhibited in the curator essays I was reading. Again, intent intent intent.
Mira wrote:Surely you can allow those of us who write for art's sake to be proud of our work, just as those who craft for a profession are?
To be honest, it's not usually the crafters disparaging the artists. A little pushback is inevitable.
Urban fantasy, epic fantasy, and hot Norse elves. http://margolerwill.blogspot.com/

User avatar
Mira
Posts: 1354
Joined: December 7th, 2009, 9:59 am
Contact:

Re: competition may negatively affect creativity

Post by Mira » July 20th, 2010, 3:34 pm

I agree that the differences are not in outcome. Definitely.

And yes, agree - ART can be snobby at times.

But I've seen plenty of crafters ragging on artists. Especially on agent's websites. Blog posts taken over by person after person complaining about artists and how if they aren't going to write for their market, their query should be deleted, etc.

But either way, I think you have some interesting points, Margo. I find myself wishing you weren't pushing back quite so hard. I think your point gets lost. And it's a valid point, worthy of discussion.

I try not to start too many threads at once on this forum, but in a few days or so, I'm going to start a thread: Artists and Crafters. Can't we all just get along?

Margo
Posts: 1712
Joined: April 5th, 2010, 11:21 am
Contact:

Re: competition may negatively affect creativity

Post by Margo » July 20th, 2010, 3:48 pm

Mira wrote:I find myself wishing you weren't pushing back quite so hard. I think your point gets lost.
What, doesn't everyone swat flies with Buicks? No? Really? Next you're going to tell me I'm the only one who hides grenades in welcoming baskets.
Mira wrote:I try not to start too many threads at once on this forum, but in a few days or so, I'm going to start a thread: Artists and Crafters. Can't we all just get along?
I know my limitations (most of the time). I will leave that topic to the diplomats.
Urban fantasy, epic fantasy, and hot Norse elves. http://margolerwill.blogspot.com/

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests