Gender roles: Emotionally weak heroines

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Re: Gender roles: Emotionally weak heroines

Post by Margo » September 17th, 2010, 1:43 am

maggie wrote:Way to teach teenagers that abusive relationships are cool.
Which makes me crazy. After years in emergency services, working as a volunteer therapist in a perinatal drug abuse program, watching one friend's family being torn apart by the relationship choices her teenaged sister is making (complete with a baby, domestic violence, death threats, restraining orders ignored by both parties...) and another friend helpless to keep her daughter away from an abusive boyfriend, I have very little patience for the subtle message that domineering stalker behavior is the highest expression of teen love. Oh, did I forget to mention the boy who forced his way into my other friend's home at 3 a.m. to get to his estranged girlfriend who was a guest in the home. The homeowner had to pull a handgun on the kid to get him back out the door only to have the boy throw a patio ornament through the window to get back in. 911...shots fired...blah blah blah... The girl got a restraining order, but she's texting him because he's soooooo lonely without her.
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Re: Gender roles: Emotionally weak heroines

Post by Heather B » September 17th, 2010, 3:21 am

I suppose there's always been a bit of a bad boy craze, is that where this has gone? And if so, are author's making the choice between a strong protag and a strong love interest? Why can't they have both?

Personally, I prefer books where the two MCs are at odds with each other. Both outspoken and both after different things. I'm a bit over the books where all the guy has in his life is her. Honestly, how many teenage boys would give up footy, surfing and hanging out with his mates just to stalk some wimpy girl. It doesn't make sense to me...
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Re: Gender roles: Emotionally weak heroines

Post by stephmcgee » September 17th, 2010, 10:24 am

The "his nature is to hurt me but I love him and he loves me" blah blah blah crap bugs me too. I think there's a shift that's happened and now being the good guy is the abnormal and the good guy doesn't win out. And it's a lot to do with the characterization of the female protag. I wanted to throttle Bella, Nora, etc. Sometimes, I wouldn't finish a book because of various reasons, one of which might include the woebegotten heroine.

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Re: Gender roles: Emotionally weak heroines

Post by Margo » September 17th, 2010, 10:51 am

Heather B wrote:Personally, I prefer books where the two MCs are at odds with each other. Both outspoken and both after different things. I'm a bit over the books where all the guy has in his life is her.
Exactly. And where the only thing in her life is him. She's disdainful of friends, disdainful of family, disdainful of school. Everything is meaningless torture that only serves to keep them apart.

I prefer (in books) the same kind of relationship you describe. Conflicting goals and desires, the back and forth as attraction wars with the very real possibility that the pair are incompatible on too many other levels. Without getting into the issues I have with some of the writing and plot choices she's made, I do have to say that I think LKH has done an excellent job in the Anita Blake series of setting up problematic relationships (the JC-Richard thing...not the later stuff). I frequently find myself reading a scene and thinking yeah, I can see why she likes him and maybe if they...no, no, after what s/he just said/did there's no way they'd work out...well, maybe...all in the same scene.

Now if Anita could just be likeable...
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Re: Gender roles: Emotionally weak heroines

Post by SeeSee » September 17th, 2010, 1:15 pm

Gee, I'm a little taken aback by this conversation. Perhaps most of you are using Twilight as an example? If so, I'm with you on that. But, heck, people, YA isn't defined by ONE book, or one book category any more than adult fiction is.

I read plenty of YA, and in most of the contemporary stuff (I don't read a lot of fantasy) the character is defined by how she grows and changes her mind, attitude and behavior. Even the fun "fluffy" books like AUDREY, WAIT! has a girl trying her best to find the right thing to do and then do it regardless of the fallout. A love triangle might be there, but it isn't the be all and end all.

Also, I'd venture to say that for character growth to happen a character might have to be weak first, before she can be strong. If she started out strong where's the story?

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Re: Gender roles: Emotionally weak heroines

Post by maybegenius » September 17th, 2010, 2:39 pm

Sommer Leigh wrote:It is tough though, to get it right. I do terrible things to my heroine, and figuring out a good balance between going comatose and not being able to deal with what has happened and then getting her back on her feet to attack the rest of the plot is no easy thing. When it works, it works well. When it doesn't...you end up with 9 chapters about a girl who does nothing but stare out the window and pine after her lost boyfriend. And no one wants to read that.
Yes yes yes. This is key.

You bring up an interesting point, and it's something that I think about often as both a feminist and a YA writer. As adults, it's very difficult for us to read about characters that don't act logically or don't behave as we think they should. The problem, however, is that the MCs of these books are not adults. They don't have the hard-earned experience and knowledge that we do. They ARE driven by emotion. The adolescent brain literally is not developed to be as attuned to rational decision-making as the adult brain.

Disclaimer: I am not saying every teenager is the same, and that they're all emotional basket cases. Not at all. But there is a very different mindset between adolescence and adulthood, and a different way of reacting to situations. Teens make illogical decisions. They behave in ways that aren't "right" or "okay." Self-harm is not okay, obsessive love is not okay, and crawling inside yourself for months while you whimper over a breakup isn't okay. But it does lend itself to the teenage mentality. They overreact. They misinterpret. Their heart is a storm and they don't know how to navigate it. And even the cockiest and most confident ones still aren't completely sure of themselves.

So how do we, as adult YA fiction writers, find the balance between the realistic teenage mindset and what we know is a healthy way to act? That's really the ticket, because if you go too far in either direction, teen readers are going to notice. I've heard a fair few teen girls complain that Bella is too whiny/melodramatic, so even they notice. On the other hand, if you have a completely confident and kick-ass heroine who always knows the "right" way to act, that's just as disingenuous.

I deal with this a lot. I consider myself a feminist, and there are often feminist themes in my writing, but I have to be careful not to overdo it. When I was a teen, I knew women were strong and that we deserved equal treatment, but I didn't quite grasp all the nuances of it. I didn't realize certain things I did (like acting dumber than I was because "boys don't like smart/nerdy girls") were in opposition to the beliefs I now hold. How do I remain realistic to the "logic" of a teenager while trying to maintain the right "message?" Which I don't really like saying because, of course, it should always be about the story, not a message you're trying to send. But at the same time, fictional characters and their actions have a lot of influence, and it makes sense to acknowledge that.

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Re: Gender roles: Emotionally weak heroines

Post by Margo » September 17th, 2010, 3:14 pm

SeeSee wrote:Also, I'd venture to say that for character growth to happen a character might have to be weak first, before she can be strong. If she started out strong where's the story?
I pretty much agree with everything you said up to this part. I see a huge difference between a character who is just weak and a character who is strong but flawed. It's believable to me that a character who is essentially strong (but flawed, even very flawed) would undertake the life-transforming events of a story and grow out of that flaw. A weak character, to paraphrase another post, would just lay in a puddle of pitifulness and starve to death. Unless a domineering boy came along, fell in (stalker) love with her despite the fact that she has no redeeming qualities, and rescued her...which actually makes him the better choice for MC...'cept for that domineering stalker part.

Yes, this extreme does apply only to certain YA books.

Yes, it happens in adult books as well.

Which surprises the heck out of me since I know agents and editors who absolutely reject a ms on the basis of a reactive (versus proactive) protagonist, let alone a perpetual damsel-in-distress.

Which brings us to the essential question: Is a reactive protagonist a retagonist?
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Re: Gender roles: Emotionally weak heroines

Post by Margo » September 17th, 2010, 3:17 pm

maybegenius wrote:Disclaimer: I am not saying every teenager is the same, and that they're all emotional basket cases. Not at all. But there is a very different mindset between adolescence and adulthood, and a different way of reacting to situations. Teens make illogical decisions. They behave in ways that aren't "right" or "okay." Self-harm is not okay, obsessive love is not okay, and crawling inside yourself for months while you whimper over a breakup isn't okay. But it does lend itself to the teenage mentality. They overreact. They misinterpret. Their heart is a storm and they don't know how to navigate it. And even the cockiest and most confident ones still aren't completely sure of themselves.
I agree. Balance. I think the thing that has caused concern for some people is a story that includes no adverse consequences attached to the self-destructive behavior. In fact, it gets the girl a hot guy.
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Re: Gender roles: Emotionally weak heroines

Post by bcomet » September 17th, 2010, 4:03 pm

One of the weakest aspects of Bella (in MHO) was that she was a HOUSEWIFE! (Egods!) She cleaned,cooked, etc and put down that toilet brush when things got interesting...

I get that she was completely into her boyfriend. It works both ways, for guys too, by the way. And so love was her strength. She was steadfast.

But the most dangerous thing was he was a bloodsucker, people! He is a vampire! She is possibly a whoose, but possibly she is under his spell. He is a monster. But, as monsters go, only true love can save him, transform him, be stronger than his monsterly love can be.
That's how the archetype reads. She will heal him by killing him (and thus setting him free) or by saving (love heals all) him. All through true love. He can ONLY be attracted to the ONE who will love that truly.

But, paleeeze, take that toilet brush out of her hands. THAT is where she rips me.

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Re: Gender roles: Emotionally weak heroines

Post by cheekychook » September 17th, 2010, 4:47 pm

Housewife? See, that's just another example of how different people read the same thing in totally different ways. I saw the fact that Bella had to sort of be the parent for both of her parents (care and feeding of her dad, organizing and watching over her mom) while still maintaining good grades,etc. as one of her strengths. I didn't see it as her being a "housewife". Nor do I see housewives in general as lacking in strength.
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Re: Gender roles: Emotionally weak heroines

Post by Erica75 » September 17th, 2010, 6:08 pm

Didn't read all these posts, but hopefully I'm following. I'm troubled a bit by comparing Bella in Twilight (can't discuss HG series - haven't read them) to YA heroines. She's a main character, but heroine? Not what I would call her. I like the books and I'm glad they brought so many teens to reading - heck, even my 9-year-old son and 35-year-old husband are enjoying the movies right next to me (won't let the 9yo read them, though, and the 35yo is sticking to the movies!). BUT IT'S FANTASY/PARANORMAL NOT NORMAL. (okay, I'm done shouting. sorry.)

Someone above (maybegenius, I think?) pointed out that the key is that the main characters grow throughout the book. For example, in mine (yes, unagented/unpublished) my mc is unsure of herself, has some inferiority issues, and babbles when she's nervous. Why? Because that's what girls in her situation do. Later, when her always-so-perfect-everything-goes-right-for-me boyfriend hits a major bump in the road, she finds that she's always been strong and that's what he loves about her, she just didn't realize it. (okay, the books better than that, but you get what I mean. ;)

Am I strong, confident, blah, blah, blah? Yes, I certainly hope so. I've been told so. I have had a ton of success in my adult life because I am.

Was I strong, confident, blah, blah, blah in my teenage years? Heck no, I was insecure, had some inferiority issues, and babbled when I was nervous. And then I went to college and grew up. As I am confident girls will continue to do ad infinitum.

So, for you other YA writers out there. Write the character that needs to be written. Help them grow. Good luck to us all.
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Re: Gender roles: Emotionally weak heroines

Post by Sommer Leigh » September 17th, 2010, 7:47 pm

maybegenius wrote:
I deal with this a lot. I consider myself a feminist, and there are often feminist themes in my writing, but I have to be careful not to overdo it. When I was a teen, I knew women were strong and that we deserved equal treatment, but I didn't quite grasp all the nuances of it. I didn't realize certain things I did (like acting dumber than I was because "boys don't like smart/nerdy girls") were in opposition to the beliefs I now hold. How do I remain realistic to the "logic" of a teenager while trying to maintain the right "message?" Which I don't really like saying because, of course, it should always be about the story, not a message you're trying to send. But at the same time, fictional characters and their actions have a lot of influence, and it makes sense to acknowledge that.
You said it really, really well.

This is so tough I think because as adults we see female characters involved in scary, stalker relationships portrayed as romantic and passionate, we see them walked all over and pushed around by much stronger female friends and we wring our hands and fret because we know this message is all wrong for teenage girls and yet as writers we know that stories have to be told as they are. Period. On one hand most of us want to tell a good story and have an awesome message but on the other we're not necessarily required to give anyone good role models. We tell stories and not all stories have good people in them. There are strong and weak girls, there are girls who desperately want to be loved by their boyfriends, there are girls who let their girlfriends bully them.

See, this is me wringing my hands and fretting.

It is also interesting that the hand wringing and fretting get worse when a book becomes a hugely popular best seller and whether the author intended it or not, the characters become someone young girls want to transform into. And then I'm all like screaming from rooftops "Girls! Girls! It's ok! You don't have to give up all your interests and friends for boys! Honest! The boy will still be there when you are done hanging out with your girlfriends/playing soccer/painting/reading/acting in the school play!"

I guess when it comes down to it, the best female protagonist, no matter what lot in life she has been dealt, I want to see her grow. I want to see the situation the book has put her in change her. Maybe she becomes strong, maybe she was always strong, maybe she never becomes strong but is still changed. I don't want an invisible heroine who is simply a doorway for the story to flow through. I want her to be a part of it, really be a part of it. And it is also great when there are some positive messages in there too.

I know Twilight has been picked on a little bit here I think because it is so hugely-in-your-face in the media and we've probably all had Twi-arguments at one point or another. There are other YA books that have these issues too. There are also a lot of YA books that are really pretty great at striking the balance.

Courtney Summers' books come to mind because they exist in that tough in-between-place where the heroines are so not role models and are actually pretty broken in ways you really don't want teenagers to want to become and yet her heroines go on a journey from beginning to end that changes them entirely. The change doesn't mean they become shining role models, but you can see that their path has changed and maybe there is good at the end of it if they want it bad enough.
Last edited by Sommer Leigh on September 17th, 2010, 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gender roles: Emotionally weak heroines

Post by zen » September 17th, 2010, 8:33 pm

Sommer, just want to say I find myself agreeing with your posts.

There is a much-deserved backlash from all the weak female protags (I'm one of the readers who couldn't finish any of the Twilight books). I can't stand seeing a woman standing off to the side in a film's fight scene -- love the ones who pick up a lamp and smash it over the villain's head.

But I also don't feel that we now have to follow some mandate. In YA, if the female MC is going through a character arc, she might start out afraid and learn how to be tough. I'm rewriting a YA MS where I'm looking at the number of times I have the MC come close to crying if not actually cry. Usually I only do that once, but I've put her through so much, I've got a few instances of this. I'm going to go back look hard at each one, and I may only end up with one, maybe two. However, my point is if you go too far the other way, and make your female MCs so kickass they have no moments of vulnerability, you've removed one of the colors from your palette.

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Re: Gender roles: Emotionally weak heroines

Post by Prudence » September 18th, 2010, 1:40 am

Striking the right balance should be the most important thing, of course. For me, if a weak protagonist works--meaning, I'm enjoying the story and her character isn't bothering me--then it works. If it doesn't, then it lessens my enjoyment of the novel, in which case I can choose to put it down or keep reading.

I've noticed emotionally weak heroines, but I've also noticed the opposite. I think in this day and age, whenever a female (in a novel or movie, so I'm being very specific here) is weak in almost any way, there's more backlash than when she's strong in nearly every way. Honestly, I find both to be annoying and find the one most people aren't saying anything about to be the most annoying, because then I'm left thinking, "Am I the only one who sees this? This is a problem too." Because then it's touted as a good thing when it's really no better than the other option. Anyway, whoever the character is, I want them to be relatable, realistic, and not annoying. Not annoying. I just had to repeat that.

As for the Twilight series, I could buy Bella being half-dead after Edward left. The only reason I disliked Bella is because I found her to be selfish, self-absorbed, and whiny. But other than that, it's a romantic series and it's all about the romance, which is, I imagine, supposed to be all-consuming since Edward is basically her soul mate. I think it chronicles what many people go through [emotionally] when they first think they're in love well enough, although I'd consider it a dramatized version of what really happens.

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Re: Gender roles: Emotionally weak heroines

Post by emilycross » September 18th, 2010, 8:52 am

Sommer Leigh wrote:I don't think the problem lies with the heroines shutting down when the going gets heartbreakingly hard to deal with. I get that part, sometimes regular life is so much to bear that you just need a day or two in bed with ice cream and a few 80s teen comedy movies to keep you company. (The Breakfast Club is my comfort food.) Throw in supernatural mayhem and life rending, apocalypse inducing destruction and I can see why some of the heroines fold up and put up an "Out to lunch" sign.

The problem is that they never bounce back. I don't know why this is the case, but they seem to lose something after they are broken and they never, ever recover. Someone else has to spend the rest of the book (or series) propping them up and protecting them from everything.

I write YA and I read YA constantly. This is my area, and I am constantly frustrated with the lack of growth and determination and strength in heroines after they have been broken. Almost to the point where the story feels like it is flowing through their transparency, not unraveling because of their choices and actions.
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I completely agree with this point. I think having either super strong heroines or weak heroines is not fair or realistic. From reading YA UF, PR and nonYA UF - there is an either/or scenerio where you either have xena who is so strong she's almost unrelatable or you have a weak character who needs to be propped up by those around her.

A balance of vulnerability and inner strength needs to be found. Like Sommer say's here so excellently - life sometimes gets too much and often the most amazing stories we hear of are characters (fiction or not) who are knocked down BUT get up again and are stronger than ever.

Examining heroines in YA fiction it also often 'relationships' define the character - in one sense I agree, that often we are shaped by those around us etc. but the depiction of relationships (especially romantic ones) are just totally skewed. As a reader, I was a little fluff with my reality but I don't want to be smothered by it or want my heroine to become a doll pulled left right and centre by the male characters.

In the end, I want a character who is flawed/normal (whether she's emotionally weak or what), who faces hardship, rises to meet the challenges and in the end becomes a stronger person from within herself. Who makes me remember her once the pages are turned and the book is closed.

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