MOCKINGJAY - spoiler edition

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Down the well
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Re: MOCKINGJAY - spoiler edition

Post by Down the well » August 28th, 2010, 1:39 pm

First, I can't imagine what it must be like to be the author of a successful book series and have everyone and their grandma criticize you when your much anticipated final installment comes out. I still think the books are brilliant. Collins is a masterful writer. But that said, ahem...

mrpluckey wrote:You don't fight to save yourselves. You fight to save your children.
That would make a worthy ending. But did we all get there, did we all come away with that conclusion? I don't think so. It might have been the author's intent, but somewhere along the way things got muddled.

I need help, for instance, making sense of the scene where Katniss votes "yes" on continuing the Hunger Games after the rebellion has won. Why? Pure revenge? Wouldn't the noble thing, the thing that would have shown her growth as a character, have been to vote "no" like Peeta did? Am I missing something on page 378? I think maybe I am.
Sommer Leigh wrote:I think the reason I really loved the first two books was because of Katniss and Peeta...not their relationship, I mean their courage and power and fire. The girl on fire right? But when it is finally over, neither of them are on fire. Neither of them have much of anything to them. Empty shells. And maybe that's what happens after war...but Katniss and Peeta aren't normal people. They aren't normal soldiers. They were the heroes. The strong characters that inspired us. They aren't much of anything in the end, and I don't buy it. And I don't like it.
Yes, I think that is the core of what bothers me too. If Katniss had fought harder for Peeta's recovery maybe? That would have been a victory. Instead, he kind of wanders around in despair. Katniss wanders around in despair. They bump into each other and hug. I think I needed more.

(Also, Sommer -- most depressing song lyrics EVER)

ltm wrote:lol @DTW--I had the same reaction of "at least she didn't kill Gale." Sheesh.
I know! I kind of fell in love with Gale a little. And throw your cyber tomatoes at me if you want, but I never really did bond with Peeta. He always seemed like a bit of a wimp to me. Sorry.
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Re: MOCKINGJAY - spoiler edition

Post by Sommer Leigh » August 28th, 2010, 3:06 pm

Down the well wrote:First, I can't imagine what it must be like to be the author of a successful book series and have everyone and their grandma criticize you when your much anticipated final installment comes out. I still think the books are brilliant. Collins is a masterful writer. But that said, ahem...
Agreed and I feel bad saying what I've said, but I don't think she should feel too bad about it. her book series is easily one of my favorites that I'll read and reread and push on everyone who will listen. I'm giving away a copy of Mockingjay on my blog, my first contest, and I wouldn't do that if I thought it was a bad book.

I get the feeling that she wrote the book she wanted to write, and it's unfortunate that it doesn't jive with what I wanted for the characters, but bravo for her the book she wanted to write.
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Re: MOCKINGJAY - spoiler edition

Post by Harper Karcz » August 28th, 2010, 3:27 pm

I just finished it late last night and I'm still processing. Actually, I had a lot of trouble sleeping because I was thinking so much about the book!

I had a lot of expectations for the book but I'm realizing how Hollywood-ized they were. Like anticipating how Katniss would perform one big, final heroic act. Like finding out more about President Snow's motivations. He was such a flat villain in Catching Fire -- a creepy old dude who smelled liked blood and roses and had no qualms about killing people. And, well, for much of Mockingjay, he was pretty much the same. But wanting Snow to have a Voldemort-style, troubled-childhood backstory was something that I've come to expect from years of conventional storytelling. By the time of his execution, he just came off as stupid and weak, a puppet of the Capitol's ideals that had been built up over the years. How nihilistic -- and yet daring for Collins to create her villain this way. The reasoning, little as it was, behind his evilness, reminded me much of the conclusions that Dave Cullen came to in the book COLUMBINE about the two school shooters -- some people are just like that, and there's little that can make them stop being that way.

One thing I really liked was the scene with the surviving victors voting on whether or not a new Hunger Games would take place. That, to me, filled in the backstory in a subtle way. I felt that Collins was suggesting that something similar could have happened 76 years before to bring about the original Hunger Games -- just people, thrown together through a mixture of circumstance and skill and will, making a decision based on a haphazard blend of mental processing and raw emotion, not knowing how much chaos they were about to create. Again, showing the weakness / fallibility of human beings. I think at that point Katniss knew that she was going to kill President Coin, and she said "yes" to the new Hunger Games so that the President would think she was on her side. Maybe? I'll have to reread that part.

I really like the series overall, though I've been lukewarm on the writing style since the beginning. This book was the same for me. I didn't like how so much of the action in the middle felt like summary, i.e., tell vs. show. My Kindle screen is relatively small, and sometimes I was amazed at how much happened on one screen of text before I had to hit "next page." When the "Star Squad" was traipsing through the underground tunnels, none of that action ever really got room to breathe. It was all squeezed together. When Finnick died -- *sob* -- I almost missed it, you know? I had to go back and read the one or two sad little paragraphs to make sure that I had just read what I thought I read.

(Finnick!!!! I loved him.)

At least in the end, I felt the narrative breathe a little more. Although at that point, Katniss didn't have much to do besides try to recover. Again, not a conventional hero story. On another forum, someone said that the end was supposed to give the reader an approximation of how people really feel after going through a war -- empty, hollow, not heroic at all. I think that's a good observation.
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Re: MOCKINGJAY - spoiler edition

Post by taylormillgirl » August 28th, 2010, 3:33 pm

I finished the book Tuesday, today is Saturday, and my opinion remains unchanged.

As for Katniss's vote on the new Hunger Games, I'm 100% positive she only voted yes to manipulate Coin. Haymitch knew it, too, which was why he cast a similar vote. I think the vote was Coin's test to see how cooperative/loyal Katniss would be.
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Down the well
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Re: MOCKINGJAY - spoiler edition

Post by Down the well » August 28th, 2010, 4:00 pm

It occurred to me that Katniss was scheming with her vote, but I guess I just didn't see the follow through when I read it the first time. But you're right. If she had voted "no" then Coin might not have let her into the arena with Snow. Katniss also wouldn't have had final confirmation that Coin was as bad as any of the leaders that had come before her. So that makes much more sense. Thanks.

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Re: MOCKINGJAY - spoiler edition

Post by maybegenius » August 28th, 2010, 5:05 pm

I didn't dislike the book at all, and really appreciate the darkness of the story Collins told. I definitely don't think she failed or wrote a bad book. I think my feelings are mostly stemming from my perception that the characters were lost to me. I couldn't find Peeta anywhere. And I get it, I really do - he was *supposed* to be lost, erased, a different person - but it was still unsettling.
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Re: MOCKINGJAY - spoiler edition

Post by ltm » August 28th, 2010, 10:22 pm

that the characters were lost to me. I couldn't find Peeta anywhere. And I get it, I really do - he was *supposed* to be lost, erased, a different person - but it was still unsettling.
that's my feeling in a nutshell.

I also don't think she failed in any way with what she was trying to accomplish. I just don't care for what she was trying to accomplish... :D And I would have a problem recommending this book to anyone. Mostly because I just convinced friends to give The Hunger Games a try. A friend of mine said, "I don't think I can read something like that" --where children are killing children. But I assured her there was a good balance of humanity mixed in w/the inhumanity of it.

That is not the case w/Mockingjay. For as well as it's written, for as good as the tone is maintained, etc., it would be hard for me to tell the same people "read this one, too." I'm sure this is the book Collins wanted to write, and I'm glad she was true to herself. But for me it was a disappointment.

I can relate to another poster--I finished Weds, and nothing's changed. I still think it's a cynical message---no one can be trusted and everyone's evil. And I still think Katniss (and the others) deserved better.

P.S.
I was always a Gale-lover, too. Which is also annoying b/c he gets saddled w/killing Prim.

P.P.S.
I was confused--there was NOT another Hunger Games, right? They voted yes, but it didn't happen... did it?
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Down the well
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Re: MOCKINGJAY - spoiler edition

Post by Down the well » August 29th, 2010, 10:16 am

ltm wrote:I was confused--there was NOT another Hunger Games, right? They voted yes, but it didn't happen... did it?
I think it died with Coin.

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Re: MOCKINGJAY - spoiler edition

Post by taylormillgirl » August 29th, 2010, 12:50 pm

Down the well wrote:
ltm wrote:I was confused--there was NOT another Hunger Games, right? They voted yes, but it didn't happen... did it?
I think it died with Coin.
I think so, too, since it was Coin's idea and other leaders disagreed with her ("...my colleagues and I can come to no consensus...").
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Re: MOCKINGJAY - spoiler edition

Post by LizHales » August 30th, 2010, 3:07 pm

I can't say I'm surprised to see so many negative comments here about Mockingjay because I've been hearing that for a week now. I'm done trying to defend this book against all this negativity because, well, I'm worn out. But I will say this: I liked The Hunger Games, I thought Catching Fire was good, but I absolutely LOVED Mockingjay. I thought the ending was brilliant and dark and tragic and it didn't feel preachy to me at all. I know people want their happy endings, or at the very least, they want it tied up into a pretty little bow, but I appreciated the reality that Suzanne Collins illustrated here. I could go on and on about Gale and Peeta and Prim and Katniss and how I never really liked her, but in Mockingjay I finally got her, but I won't. I'm sad that so many people were disappointed in this book.

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Re: MOCKINGJAY - spoiler edition

Post by Sommer Leigh » August 30th, 2010, 3:48 pm

LizHales wrote:I can't say I'm surprised to see so many negative comments here about Mockingjay because I've been hearing that for a week now. I'm done trying to defend this book against all this negativity because, well, I'm worn out. But I will say this: I liked The Hunger Games, I thought Catching Fire was good, but I absolutely LOVED Mockingjay. I thought the ending was brilliant and dark and tragic and it didn't feel preachy to me at all. I know people want their happy endings, or at the very least, they want it tied up into a pretty little bow, but I appreciated the reality that Suzanne Collins illustrated here. I could go on and on about Gale and Peeta and Prim and Katniss and how I never really liked her, but in Mockingjay I finally got her, but I won't. I'm sad that so many people were disappointed in this book.

I can't speak for everyone, but as far as I can tell the majority of the people really loved the book, but were surprised and shocked by the ending. At least that's how I feel. I'm disappointed in some of the aspects, and I'm certainly not someone who prefers their endings tied up in a bow. I like tragic dark endings. I think all three books have their fair share of tragedy and darkness, but there was always hope. In each book there was hope, and I'm surprised that there isn't much hope at the end of the last book.

I honestly believe that this is one of those rare cases where the ending wasn't exactly what everyone expected but it didn't diminish anyone's love of the series. I could be wrong, but I've been surprised by the balance of criticism and love in the reviews here.
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Re: MOCKINGJAY - spoiler edition

Post by Sommer Leigh » August 30th, 2010, 3:50 pm

taylormillgirl wrote:
Down the well wrote:
ltm wrote:I was confused--there was NOT another Hunger Games, right? They voted yes, but it didn't happen... did it?
I think it died with Coin.
I think so, too, since it was Coin's idea and other leaders disagreed with her ("...my colleagues and I can come to no consensus...").

I agree, I think it died with Coin. I don't think Katniss or Haymitch voted Yes because they wanted the games, they did it so Coin's guard would be let down enough for Katniss to off her. I thought that was pretty ingenius of them.
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Re: MOCKINGJAY - spoiler edition

Post by Down the well » August 30th, 2010, 4:27 pm

Damn, I was going to quote Sommer and do a quadruple quote, but the forum gods said no. Three's the max. :P

I think the Hunger Games died, but books like this always leave open the possibility that the tragedy could be repeated. Like Harper said:
Harper Karcz wrote: I felt that Collins was suggesting that something similar could have happened 76 years before to bring about the original Hunger Games -- just people, thrown together through a mixture of circumstance and skill and will, making a decision based on a haphazard blend of mental processing and raw emotion, not knowing how much chaos they were about to create. Again, showing the weakness / fallibility of human beings.
Katniss might have been insincere with her vote, but others in the room said yes and they meant it. So...you never know, which is what makes social commentary books so much fun to ponder.

LizHales wrote:I can't say I'm surprised to see so many negative comments here about Mockingjay because I've been hearing that for a week now. I'm done trying to defend this book against all this negativity because, well, I'm worn out.
I've had a few days to let my feelings settle and I've made my peace with the book. I think it is a good book with a flawed ending. But that's just an opinion, not a fact. I know plenty of people who are completely satisfied with the ending and that's great. That's the nature of art. Sometimes it resonates, sometimes it doesn't.

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Re: MOCKINGJAY - spoiler edition

Post by hayesjf » August 30th, 2010, 5:52 pm

Okay, I'm like a lot of you--I bought the book on Tuesday, finished it Tuesday night, and I'm still trying to decide how I feel about it.

On the one hand, I really liked this book. I've loved this series, and I think there is a lot to praise here, as well. It had me totally consumed for the evening at the very least. And ever since then, as I've thought about it a lot.

On the other hand, I can't help feeling a bit disappointed with the ending. I totally get that in a war no one wins. And I think it had to be this way--the ending felt true to the story in that respect. Katniss lost a lot and no matter what happens in the future, she'll have to live with those memories and that pain. However, I just didn't buy the ending with Peeta. Personally, I've been pulling for Peeta all along. I love Gale, too, but Peeta was so good to her, for so long, and in so many situations where she didn't even realize what he was doing for her. I saw him as the strong, silent type. Which for me, was very sexy and appealing. The way it ended though, with them just back together didn't feel authentic to me. He tried to kill her--he didn't know which of his memories were real and which weren't--something he spent the last half of the book trying to figure out, so where was the moment that he realized who she really was or which memories he would choose to believe? Not having that moment really hurt the ending, in my opinion. I know she explained it by saying that they eventually grew back together, but not actually experiencing it with them made it feel forced or unrealistic to me and a bit rushed, to be honest. It felt too much like summary when we needed to see it.

Also, it bothered me that Kat never really made a decision. I know she did about Gale, and that made perfect sense to me (although I think she had made that decision much earlier, really), but it was like she just kind of ended up with Peeta. Like it just happened. These two characters who had gone through hell together and had spent so much energy and effort to keep the other one alive would've fought like crazy for what they'd found, not just drifted into this life they have at the end, even if it was together. Somewhere they should've had a moment where they really came together again. Where they decided that even with all the loss, you grab onto what you can in life, because that's essentially what they've done at the end. We just didn't get to see it. I think we (at least I) needed to see it to be able to buy the whole thing.

Anyway, still thought it was a good book. But I think I'm grieving a little, too.

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Re: MOCKINGJAY - spoiler edition

Post by taylormillgirl » August 30th, 2010, 6:20 pm

hayesjf wrote: so where was the moment that he realized who she really was or which memories he would choose to believe?
I'll give you my opinion. I think the first moment was when Katniss stroked Peeta's hair and he said, "You're still protecting me. Real or not real?" She told him yes, and that's what they did--protected each other.

I think the second moment, when he made up his mind to stay with Katniss for good, was when she lied about her vote and killed Coin. When Peeta covered up her nightlock pocket, notice what Katniss says next: "Let me go." His reply: "I can't." I think those words have deeper meaning. He can't let her go, and he's decided which memories to believe.

Edit: I just thought of something else! During the vote, Peeta catches Kat's eye, then looks away like he did back in school. Perhaps he's still unsure at that point. But it's specifically mentioned that he holds her gaze while covering the nightlock, so for me, that seals it.
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