(Un)Realistic young character dialogue

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Guardian
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Re: (Un)Realistic young character dialogue

Post by Guardian » January 10th, 2011, 10:38 pm

You are not going for typical I understand - I just thought it might help to compare.
Good comparission. The second version, what you presented, is what I'd like to avoid in this story. I could write it on this way, but it would give a different atmosphere.
Also, it might help the reader if at some point another character notices the child's advanced verbal development.
Her mother is mentioning this few lines later, which is also giving a hint for the reader where from she, the little girl, is learned all this.
Good luck with your story.
Thank you very much.

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Re: (Un)Realistic young character dialogue

Post by JenAlbin » January 11th, 2011, 3:03 am

I skimmed through the replies and I didn't see anyone mentioning this, so I thought I would bring it up. I think the key in making this character sound precocious and not stilted or unrealistic is by balancing the character with a more realistic, developmentally average character. For instance, A Wrinkle in Time has a young character who is a prodigy and speaks wisely and formally throughout. He is balanced by siblings who are average, use common words/slang in their dialogue, and the result is a character who is precocious, intelligent, and well-spoken.

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Re: (Un)Realistic young character dialogue

Post by Guardian » January 11th, 2011, 7:26 am

I think the key in making this character sound precocious and not stilted or unrealistic is by balancing the character with a more realistic, developmentally average character.
That's a really good observation. i.e. I'm balancing this character with her younger, 5 years old sister. But sometimes the intelligent character can be balanced too with some inner thought, or actions or even less intelligent dialogues.

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Re: (Un)Realistic young character dialogue

Post by dios4vida » January 11th, 2011, 11:11 am

I guess I have to be the voice of dissent here. The girl's voice threw me. I have a seven-year-old niece (who happens to be very intelligent and well raised) and she would never use phrases like that. To me, she sounded arrogant and too all-knowing for a child.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not saying your voice is wrong. I've not read anything, nor do I know the plot or character well enough to give a true opinion. It may be that this voice is perfect like others are saying. But just from these two phrases, I can't see a seven-year-old saying this.

I also have read Ender's Game, just for the record. I have no problem with super-intelligent children, but I think this voice is just a little too intelligent. I think a little rewording, just a slight bit of more average adult wording (which would be intelligent for a child) would sit better with me. And I don't mean to dumb her down to one-syllable words...just a little more normal.

But again, it's your character. You know her and know what feels right. Go with that. You can't please everyone, so I think 12 of 14 betas and the overwhelming support on this thread gives you the artistic license to say "this is it" and run with it.

Good luck!
Brenda :)

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Re: (Un)Realistic young character dialogue

Post by Fenris » January 11th, 2011, 3:16 pm

Guardian, I think what might help establish Grace's seemingly unusual (for a seven-year-old) vocabulary and intelligence is showing it before the dialogue crops up. It's been a while since I read this scene, so my memory's grown a bit foggy, but if I remember correctly this conversation was one of the very first things to occur, even before character development. And I think that's the problem: since readers haven't yet grown fully aware of Grace and her traits, they'll take the fact that she's seven and (probably) go with the common image of children at that age. Most seven-years-olds do not command such a vocabulary as Grace does, and since the reader has not yet seen any evidence to suggest that Grace is different, the fact that her dialogue is much more developed and formal than most other children her age might raise questions.

I think if you were to spend some time before this conversation developing Grace further it might help. For example, showing the reader her perceptions, her thoughts, her feelings, all the while using the same kind of diction that her dialogue conveys. If the reader does not have time to attach a stereotype to a character, Grace in this case, they won't be thrown off by examples of unexpected extraordinariness, because these examples will no longer be unexpected. Does that make sense?
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Re: (Un)Realistic young character dialogue

Post by Guardian » January 11th, 2011, 3:26 pm

And I think that's the problem: since readers haven't yet grown fully aware of Grace and her traits, they'll take the fact that she's seven and (probably) go with the common image of children at that age.
I also mentioned this as a possibility (Somewhere on Page 1 or 2). But if you recall it, before this part there are two very short scenes... the transition opening between the narrative part and this part, which is giving her some traits already, before she would even speak. But as you said, maybe not enough to reach the necessary level. Also if you remember, in the opening the narrator also gave a hint regarding the traits of the character, before the transition (But right now I meditate to cut that part out.).
showing the reader her perceptions, her thoughts, her feelings
These are in the transition, before this scene actually starts (Just remember what was the transition between the narrative opening and this part. That part is served this purpose. There you learned all these what you listed here; perceptions, thoughts, feelings... the three core elements what I use all over in CSA and for this character.).

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Re: (Un)Realistic young character dialogue

Post by Fenris » January 11th, 2011, 3:38 pm

I took a look back at Chapter One, and I can see the areas you're referring to. The first scene (the old man) serves to tell us of Grace, but for full comprehension we need to be shown her traits. The second scene, before the conversation takes place, serves to do that somewhat, but it still resembles an ordinary seven-year-old's diction for the most part. There are some words and phrases that seem a tad extraordinary in terms of what we'd expect from someone her age, but it's still not quite on the same level as the conversation that follows.

Still, I am definitely part of the minority here. You shouldn't try and please everyone--if twelve out of fourteen people had no trouble with this scene, then it's probably better to leave it as is than change it to please two and risk alienating the rest.
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Re: (Un)Realistic young character dialogue

Post by Guardian » January 11th, 2011, 3:47 pm

Still, I am definitely part of the minority here.
There is no minority and majority in this case, just opinions between equal people. I'm not making differences between minorities and majorities.
The second scene, before the conversation takes place, serves to do that somewhat, but it still resembles an ordinary seven-year-old's diction for the most part.
So there the tone is correct. That's already a great help, because I already can see what is the difference between the two. I'll have to tune down her voice a bit in these two lines (At least in the "Awakened" line. The other line, "Mother" is maybe stay as it is.). Although the mentioned words and phrases are coming from the world itself. You know that. That's not the only place where I used something different, rather invented few new "phrases" and "proverbs" which fits only to this world.
better to leave it as is than change it to please two and risk alienating the rest.
Or maybe I can make this change to please both sides. A little change in these two sentences won't kill the story, or the character. Second option, I'm going to change Grace's age to nine. Nine maybe sounds better... maybe much better then, seven. ;)

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Re: (Un)Realistic young character dialogue

Post by Fenris » January 11th, 2011, 6:45 pm

Guardian wrote:Although the mentioned words and phrases are coming from the world itself. You know that. That's not the only place where I used something different, rather invented few new "phrases" and "proverbs" which fits only to this world.
You're right, in those cases the departure from the norm is necessary; you wouldn't want to give readers the false impression that the story is set on Earth. I'm not disputing that.
Guardian wrote:Nine maybe sounds better... maybe much better then, seven.
Perhaps; it's your choice. The extra two years would certainly allow for further development. Just be sure to scour the rest of the manuscript for every place where her age is mentioned--you wouldn't want any accidental discrepancies left over (I've discovered a few of those in Harbinger, thankfully before I sent it out to beta readers. Hopefully I caught all of them).
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Re: (Un)Realistic young character dialogue

Post by Guardian » January 11th, 2011, 7:18 pm

Just be sure to scour the rest of the manuscript for every place where her age is mentioned--you wouldn't want any accidental discrepancies left over (I've discovered a few of those in Harbinger, thankfully before I sent it out to beta readers. Hopefully I caught all of them).
In CSA's case it's mentioned only in the beginning, only one times. So it's not a big deal. But thanks for the warning. :)

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Re: (Un)Realistic young character dialogue

Post by aduson » January 13th, 2011, 1:45 pm

1) I know this probably isn't your genre but when I think of precocious, I automatically think of Eloise at the Plaza. She plays the 6 year old marvelously. Sometimes it's 'OMG I can't believe a 6 year old can converse so well', but she can also play the 'well what do you expect, I'm only 6 years old' card very well too.

2) On a darker side think of the boy in The Shining. He likes all of the things a young boy should like, but there is more to him. Despite all of his special abilities, he still is believable as a child who is being forced to react to supernatural occurances.

3) Doogie Houser, M.D. was a hit. OK, not exactly literature or even great TV, but we accepted him.

Your 7 year old (or 9 if you change it) can still be a child but with flashes of precociousness. You could also reverse it, a precocious child with flashes of childishness. The juxtaposition between immaturity and maturity would intrigue your readers. The human mind is too complex to rule out the possibility of a child such as the one you are conceiving. The problem is to strike a balance between what is accepted as "normal" child development and tap into the unknown potential of child precociousness. Having said that, there is still a real danger in making her too adult-like all of the time which might give her too much of a Stepford Wife quality and making you lose credibility with your readers.
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Re: (Un)Realistic young character dialogue

Post by Guardian » January 13th, 2011, 2:07 pm

Your 7 year old (or 9 if you change it) can still be a child but with flashes of precociousness. You could also reverse it, a precocious child with flashes of childishness
This is the right word. Precociousness. Thank you for it.
The problem is to strike a balance between what is accepted as "normal" child development and tap into the unknown potential of child precociousness.
This is what I'm intending to do. In the other scenes she have a relatively normal child style. But this is what I'd like to achieve... precociousness as a major trait for this young character.
Last edited by Guardian on January 13th, 2011, 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: (Un)Realistic young character dialogue

Post by aduson » January 13th, 2011, 2:38 pm

Another thought.

The first rule in making a persuasive speech is to accept that there are valid arguments against what you are proposing. This can work in your book too. You know your readers are thrown by your child's dialogue, so incorporate their anticipated reaction into the book's action. Have a character say exactly what you suppose is going through your readers heads and use the evolution of that scene to deflect it with why it is acceptable for this particular little girl to talk and act a certain way.

The character could be anyone, a new neighbor, a grocery store clerk, a mom on a playground. Even if her own mother is used to hearing her little girl speak older than her age, at some point she must still be amazed at her. Give voice to their amazement but turn it into an amazed acceptance. Create a "now I've seen everything" scene.

You would do your child a disservice to ignore the fact that she is special. You must acknowlege that she is not average, you just don't have to acknowlege that it's impossible for her to exist.
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Re: (Un)Realistic young character dialogue

Post by lmjackson » January 13th, 2011, 3:30 pm

Looking at the specific snippet of dialogue, it's not so much too intelligent as much as too antiquated.

But from what I can remember from when you posted about your WIP earlier, the setting here is not contemporary. So in this case consistency, not realism, would be the major factor. Having one character say "Mother, when can we expect dinner to arrive?" and another character say "Hey Mom, when's dinner?" is going be inconsistent and unsettling for readers. Not every character has to be of the same intelligence, but there are certain idiosyncrasies and nuances of language that we all share just by the nature of speaking the same language in the same time period (even more so for those residing in the same country, region, and town). But if everyone in the novel (overgeneralizing here, but you know what I mean) uses "Mother" or everyone uses "Ma" or everyone uses "Mom", then that more or less ties all dialogue together and allows the reader to notice important differences (such as a precocious seven year-old).

And I would probably keep her at age seven. Nine seems too old. This is purely my opinion though, and I don't really have any significant reasons to back it up!
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Re: (Un)Realistic young character dialogue

Post by Guardian » January 13th, 2011, 3:59 pm

Looking at the specific snippet of dialogue, it's not so much too intelligent as much as too antiquated.
It's a fantasy world, which is quite different then our world. So here, the antiquated maybe going to be accepted.
Having one character say "Mother, when can we expect dinner to arrive?" and another character say "Hey Mom, when's dinner?" is going be inconsistent and unsettling for readers.
I watch for this all over the novel. I never change the tone in this world in this matter.
But if everyone in the novel (overgeneralizing here, but you know what I mean) uses "Mother" or everyone uses "Ma" or everyone uses "Mom", then that more or less ties all dialogue together and allows the reader to notice important differences (such as a precocious seven year-old).
Yep. That's a constant trait all over in this world.

Here are two another examples. Here the seven years old girl is already an adult woman. Regardless few things are changing drastically in her character, she is still speaking on this way, even in her adult age.

"Mother. Please hear me out."

Or...

“Your mother knows that you’re right.”
"No. Mother is wise and she is always right.”

And I would probably keep her at age seven. Nine seems too old. This is purely my opinion though, and I don't really have any significant reasons to back it up!
Yesterday I played with this a little and she will remain seven, because of few reasons. She would be too old is one of them, just as you mentioned.
Last edited by Guardian on January 13th, 2011, 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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