Page Critique Friday 8/27/10

Offer up your page (or query) for Nathan's critique on the blog.

Page Critique Friday 8/27/10

Postby Nathan Bransford » 27 Aug 2010, 09:12

Okay! Here's how this is going to work. Below is the page up for critique. Feel free to chime in with comments, create your own redline (please note the "font colour" button above the posting box), and otherwise offer feedback. When offering your feedback, please please remember the sandwich rule (Positive, very polite constructive feedback, positive). In order to leave a comment you will need to register an account in the Forums, which should be self-explanatory.

I'll be back later with my own comment, and I'll update this original post with a link to my comment in case anyone wants to click to it directly. There will not be a separate thread, just this one.

And if you'd like to enter a page for a future Page Critique, please do so here.

As of this posting there were 483 pages up for critique. The random number generator at random.org says.....

351!!

Thanks to Porthmeor Beach, whose page is below.

UPDATE: My critique and redline can be found here.

TITLE: 'APOSTLE'
GENRE: CRIME
WORDCOUNT: 250

A white Transit van pulls into a long straight road by the town park, slows for the speed bumps, then indicates right. Pulls into a small car park in front of the two-story honeystone building that is Oakham Police Station.

For a minute, no-one gets out.

Rain falls on the van’s windscreen. Andy Webb sits in the driver’s seat, one hand still on the wheel, the other holding a phone to his right ear. An exhausted man in his late thirties, he’s staring fixedly ahead. He’s listening.

From the passenger seat, Jean Webb looks out at the grey morning. Across the road, towards the park bandstand, at the green swathes of grass falling away to the children’s swing and the play area. In the background, the huge church spire reaches to the sky. Leopard gargoyles strain high up on leashes, stone eyes blinded.

Her son, on the phone, is doing some kind of deal on a set of second hand radiators. Even now, in the car park of the bloody police station – even under these circumstances - he can’t let the job go. Although there’s no enthusiasm in his voice, even today he’s promising to drive up to Melton to pick up parts for plumbing.

Andy, aware of his mother’s disapproval, agrees to pay over the odds for the gear, and cuts the call. He throws the phone onto the van’s dashboard, it disappears into a mess of paperwork and empty takeaway wrappers. Closes his eyes, rubs them.
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Re: Page Critique Friday 8/27/10

Postby stephmcgee » 27 Aug 2010, 10:06

Nathan Bransford wrote:
TITLE: 'APOSTLE'
GENRE: CRIME
WORDCOUNT: 250

A white Transit van pulls into a long straight road by the town park, slows for the speed bumps, then indicates right. Delete and replace with "It" and a lower-case letter pPulls into a small car park in front of the two-story honeystoneinteresting color descriptor building that is Oakham Police Station.

For a minute, no-one gets out.

Rain falls on the van’s windscreen. Andy Webb sits in the driver’s seat, one hand still on the wheel, the other holding a phone to his right ear. An exhausted man in his late thirties, he’s staring fixedly ahead. He’s listening.

From the passenger seat, Jean Webb looks out at the grey morning. Comma, lower-case "a"Across the road, towards the park bandstand, at the green swathes of grass falling away to the children’s swing and the play area. In the background, the huge church spire reaches to the sky. Leopard gargoyles strain high up on leashes, stone eyes blinded. How does she know what the gargoyles look like, what their pose is? The spire is in the background, which indicates to me that it's too far away to see clearly.

Her sonIs there a way to bring out this detail earlier? My first thought was that it was a husband and wife in the car., on the phone, is doing some kind of deal on a set of second hand radiators. Even now, in the car park of the bloody police station – even under these circumstances - What circumstances?he can’t let the job go. Although there’s no enthusiasm in his voice, even today he’s promising to drive up to Melton to pick up parts for plumbing.I'm confused by this sentence. A) it reads more like you're telling me than showing me and B) I don't equate radiators with plumbing.

Andy, aware of his mother’s disapproval, agrees to pay over the odds ??? Is this a British term? While I don't think you have to pander to non-British audiences, a little context for the term so I can get the gist of its meaning might be nice.for the gear, and cuts the call. He throws the phone onto the van’s dashboard, it disappears into a mess of paperwork and empty takeaway wrappers. He closesCloses his eyes, rubs them.


This is an interesting first page. I get a decent sense of setting, but not much else. I'm struggling to get an idea of what's going on. Why are these people where they are and doing what they're doing? I know it's only the first page.

I'm not a big fan of present tense, and I'll tell you why. I've noticed a tendency in present tense toward short, sometimes incomplete, declarative sentences. The words don't flow well for my ear and tongue when I'm reading in present tense. It tends to feel choppy, like there was such a focus on trying to bring a sense of immediate action that other considerations were left on the backburner.

I like the interesting color descriptors. I thought the way you described the park was very well done and gave a good sense of location. But I wonder if it was necessary. I'm more interested in what's not described. The police station, the people, the tone of voice, did someone sigh or groan at what was happening in the phone conversation?

All in all a very good beginning.
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Re: Page Critique Friday 8/27/10

Postby hulbertsfriend » 27 Aug 2010, 10:16

Thanks to Porthmeor Beach, whose page is below:

TITLE: 'APOSTLE'
GENRE: CRIME
WORDCOUNT: 250

A white Transit van pulls into a long straight road by the town park, slows for the speed bumps, then indicates right. Pulls into a small car park in front of the two-story honeystone building that is Oakham Police Station.

For a minute, no-one gets out.

Rain falls on the van’s windscreen. Andy Webb sits in the driver’s seat, one hand still on the wheel, the other holding a phone to his right ear. An exhausted man in his late thirties, he’s staring fixedly ahead. He’s listening.

From the passenger seat, Jean Webb looks out at the grey morning. Across the road, towards the park bandstand, at the green swathes of grass falling away to the children’s swing and the play area. In the background, the huge church spire reaches to the sky. Leopard gargoyles strain high up on leashes, stone eyes blinded.

Her son, on the phone, is doing some kind of deal on a set of second hand radiators. Even now, in the car park of the bloody police station – even under these circumstances - he can’t let the job go. Although there’s no enthusiasm in his voice, even today he’s promising to drive up to Melton to pick up parts for plumbing.

Andy, aware of his mother’s disapproval, agrees to pay over the odds for the gear, and cuts the call. He throws the phone onto the van’s dashboard, it disappears into a mess of paperwork and empty takeaway wrappers. Closes his eyes, rubs them.[/quote]



Hi Porthmoer Beach ---

I started a redline of your page then stopped. Is this a screenplay? It reads very much like one. You have an eye for detail of a scene, as well as for movement. Yet in this current form, it appeared to be setting up a Director's shooting sequence, as well as give the actors direction?

Is the ridgid style meant to convey the character's demeanor? Are these very stoic people or are you conveying the tension of performing a criminal act in a police station parking lot?

Lack of knowing the context of the scene makes it difficult to critique this page. My instinct would be to put all Mom's thoughts after Andy's actions, his glancing at her the lead in to her thoughts.

You've got skills, but the narrative voice is too tight.I'll look for a larger post of yours in the excerpts thread.
"All it takes to fly is to hurl yourself at the ground... and miss." Douglas Adams
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Re: Page Critique Friday 8/27/10

Postby beeboo15 » 27 Aug 2010, 10:21

Mood is firmly set—police station, gray morning, rain, blind gargoyles, throwing the phone, mess of paperwork, and a disapproving mother. Well done.

Conflict isn’t readily apparent, but alluded to by a few different things: 1) the police station, 2) his mother’s disapproval, and 3) overall mood of the piece. Enough conflict to keep a reader going.

Interesting style and use of fragmented sentences. I feel as though most of them work, but the longer fragment felt awkward: “Across the road, towards the park bandstand, at the green swathes of grass falling away to the children’s swing and the play area.”

The combination of mood, implied conflict and interesting style is intriguing. Even though we know it’s the narrator, the fragments make the sentences feel like his thoughts.

I would read on as much for the style as I would the story.
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Re: Page Critique Friday 8/27/10

Postby ReenaJacobs » 27 Aug 2010, 10:28

Thanks for sharing. It takes a lot of courage to put yourself on the chopping block.

I have to admit, I'm not very familiar with the omniscient POV, so I'm not sure if what you have is standard or not. Therefore, I'm not going to comment on it. I will say, I'm not sure what's going on here. It seems like a bunch of random actions. I think it could use a bit more focus. For instance, the story starts with three characters, yet I know very little about them. I know where they are, but I don't know why they're there. I don't even know whom the story is about. Who is the main character? I'm afraid a lot is happening here, but nothing important from what I saw.

I might suggest working on "showing" a bit more than "telling." The telling along with the omniscient POV makes it seem like it's written for a screenplay rather than an actual novel.

For example: Rain falls on the van’s windscreen. Andy Webb sits in the driver’s seat, one hand still on the wheel, the other holding a phone to his right ear. An exhausted man in his late thirties, he’s staring fixedly ahead. He’s listening. He's exhausted. What gives the impression he's exhausted? Tired eyes? Drooping shoulders? Show it. Also do you need to elaborate he's listening? If a person has a phone to their ear, I think most people would assume they're listening.

I might suggest googling "show versus tell" and come back to this piece with new tools under your belt for the revisions. This novel might have a lot of potential, but it'd be hard to know for sure unless the style becomes a bit more engaging.
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Re: Page Critique Friday 8/27/10

Postby wetair » 27 Aug 2010, 10:30

It is in the present tense! Wow. At first, when you introduce the characters names, I thought they were husband and wife. I didn't realize they were mother and son until you say "Her son . . ." I am not sure what is going on, just that something is, something involving the police (why else would they be in the police parking lot?)
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Re: Page Critique Friday 8/27/10

Postby Jeff S Fischer » 27 Aug 2010, 11:07

My personal taste is to be introduced to the characters right off. For instance, Andy Webb and his mother Jean... The setting of the police station, the park and the church gargoyles are intriguing - three different forces facing one another. Since it is in the present, No on got out for a minute, seems out of place. And since it is in the present, the rest of the scene, presenting the characters and their life as we know it so far, might be presented better with a true scene inside of the van with dialogue and the throwing of the phone. All the ingredients of an interesting story are here but the way it is put together makes it a little confusing for me. Nice start.
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Re: Page Critique Friday 8/27/10

Postby ARJules » 27 Aug 2010, 12:30

For me, (and keep in mind this is my opinion) this didn't read really smoothly. I like a good cropped sentence here and there. When there are too many, it just makes it hard to read. Also, there seems to be a lot of details in this page that don't need to be there. I think that we might be JUST getting to the premise behind the story right at the end of this page. Is he on a stake out? Does he work at the police station? Is he a detective? A criminal? In my opinion, I would have rather cut all the un-necessaries and jumped into the gist of it. Who is he? Why is he there? Why should we care? That will keep me reading.

Also, I have to agree with Hulbertsfriend... when I read this first, it felt like a screenplay to me. That each of the scene descriptions in your first page were camera shots. (Which would have looked cool, by the way.)
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Re: Page Critique Friday 8/27/10

Postby Calliopenjo » 27 Aug 2010, 12:36

TITLE: 'APOSTLE'
GENRE: CRIME
WORDCOUNT: 250

A white Transit van pulls into a long straight (How long is long? Show us the length instead of telling.)road by the town park, slows for the speed bumps, then indicates right. Pulls into a small car park in front of the two-story honeystone building that is Oakham Police Station. This feels too mechanical. Try a more story like approach. Ex: A white van pulls into a road. It passed by three buildings and a lake before it turned right.

For a minute, no-one gets out.

Rain falls on the van’s windscreen. Andy Webb sits in the driver’s seat, one hand still on the wheel, the other holding a phone to his right ear. An exhausted man in his late thirties,(Is this an important detail? How could someone tell Adam Webb was in his late thirties?) he’s staring fixedly ahead. He’s listening.

From the passenger seat, Jean Webb looks out at the grey morning. Across the road, towards the park bandstand, at the green swathes of grass falling away to the children’s swing and the play area. In the background, the huge church spire reaches to the sky. Leopard gargoyles strain high up on leashes, stone eyes blinded. If this was in the distance, would the character be able to see that much detail?

Her son, on the phone, is doing some kind of deal on a set of second hand radiators. Even now, in the car park of the bloody police station – even under these circumstances - he can’t let the job go. Although there’s no enthusiasm in his voice, even today he’s promising to drive up to Melton to pick up parts for plumbing.

Andy, aware of his mother’s disapproval, agrees to pay over the odds for the gear, and cuts the call. He throws the phone onto the van’s dashboard, it disappears into a mess of paperwork and empty takeaway wrappers. Closes his eyes, rubs them.


I'm not an expert. This is strictly my opinion taken from a reader's POV. Keep it. Toss it. It's up to you.

Overall Impression: In my opinion, there is a man looking at something talking to someone over the telephone.

There is good description in this piece. We can see the detail.

Consider though, other senses such as feeling or smell to form a complete picture.

The only other thing that might be taken into consideration is how to express detail. It feels too mechanical in here. It's a list rather than a story. In stead of writing: he woke up, sat up on his bed, put his slippers on, and went to the bathroom. Consider: He woke up with his alarm clock. After hitting the alarm off, he put his slippers on to prevent the shock of cold floor from hitting his feet. He shuffled his way to the bathroom with his eyes closed when the light turned on. One eye opened as he turned on the shower. It also gives the audience a chance to see the character as well.

I'm interested to see where this story is going.

Good luck with it.

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Re: Page Critique Friday 8/27/10

Postby Mike Peterson » 27 Aug 2010, 13:02

Like others, my first response was "wait a minute. This isn't a novel; it's a screenplay."

Now, 250 words isn't much, and it may be that, a paragraph from here, you're going to pop into the flashback and tell the story in a more conventional narrative tone until we loop back to this point, 10 pages from the end of the book. I kind of hope so, because I don't think you can sustain this kind of emotionless I-am-the-camera POV for a full length adult crime novel.

And it is that lack of affect, rather than the present tense, that makes this difficult. It's all well and good to describe a gargoyle and a church spire, and tell that it's raining, and even to suggest that his mother is often annoyed at his refusal to put business aside, but you've got to make something matter to the reader, especially the reader who is potentially your literary agent or your publisher.

Even if you're going to write in a neutral tone, you've got to keep THEM from reading what you've written without responding emotionally, either to argue or simply to become curious.
"Marley was dead: to begin with. There is no doubt whatever about that."
"It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune must be in want of a wife."
"It was love at first sight. The first time Yossarian saw the chaplain, he fell madly in love with him."

Dickens is simply making you curious, Austen is picking a fight with the reader and Heller wants to start right away on what will be several hundred pages of confusion.

There's a difference between arousing curiosity and simply not letting the reader know what's going on, and, while you certainly don't have to get there in the first sentence, you do have to get there on the first page. This very mechanical scene setting doesn't do it for me, because, in order for the narration to be bland, the action cannot be. "Marley was dead" is wonderfully bland, but it contains a corpse.

If the narrator is going to be unemotional, you need a corpse or an explosion or to have your main character fall in love with the chaplain.
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Re: Page Critique Friday 8/27/10

Postby Valerie63 » 27 Aug 2010, 13:24

TITLE: 'APOSTLE'
GENRE: CRIME
WORDCOUNT: 250

A white Transit van pulls into a long straight road by the town park,I would place a period after park and cut the rest of the [/b[b]]line.[color=#FF0000][/color] slows for the speed bumps, then indicates right. It p Pulls into a small car park in front of the two-story honeystone building that is Oakham Police Station.

For a minute, no-one gets out.

I would cut this line Rain falls on the van’s windscreen. Andy Webb sits in the driver’s seat, one hand still on the wheel, the other holding a phone to his right ear.You should take the first part of this line out or show us how Andy's exhausted. An exhausted man in his late thirties,Capitol H he’s staring fixedly ahead. He’s listening.

From the a instead of the passenger seat, Jean Webb,his mother, looks out at the grey morning.Cut this line out, it drags the story-- unless, of course, there is going to be some kind of gunplay and we need to know the layout of the park. Across the road, towards the park bandstand, at the green swathes of grass falling away to the children’s swing and the play area. In the background, the huge church spire reaches to the sky.comma its l Leopard gargoyles strain high up on leashes, stone eyes blinded.I love this description! Combine the line and it's in contrast to Jean "looking."

Cut this first part Her son, on the phone,Why is Andy doing some kind of deal on a set of second hand radiators.comma e Even now, in the car park of the bloody police station –cut the rest of the line even under these circumstances - he can’t let the job go.cut the first part of the line-telling vs showing Although there’s no enthusiasm in his voice,capitol E even today comma he’s promising to drive up to Melton to pick up parts for plumbing.I hope that reader gets the payoff from the build up of the even today by the middle of the second page.

Andy, aware of his mother’s disapproval,quickly agrees to pay over the odds for the gear, and cuts the call. He throws the phone onto the van’s dashboard, where it disappears into a mess of paperwork and empty takeaway wrappers. Closes his (perhaps something descriptive that conveys exhaustion, ie blood shot) eyes, rubs them.

I think this could be a great beginning.I think the writing is suffering from my own personal sins-- over writing and telling not showing. I want to know what the significance of the day is. I want to know if we're about to hear a gunshot. They are many possibilities of where the story could go.
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Re: Page Critique Friday 8/27/10

Postby Nathan Bransford » 27 Aug 2010, 14:21

I think this page has an interesting style, and is able to build an interesting atmosphere in the beginning. I thought the dispassionate tone worked at first, but gradually as the page unfolded I started to get confused because the page does too little to help us understand how one thing is fitting with the next, and the narrative perspective is going in a couple different directions.

Within third person narratives there are a few different ways to tell a story, whether it's omniscient, or (most commonly) limited to a particular character's perspective. Head jumping is very difficult to pull off without distracting the reader, and on this page there seems to be a little of both techniques. It seems to be tied to Andy's perspective at first but then jumps abruptly to Jean's perspective, and Andy is no longer called Andy but instead Jean's son. Then it goes back to Andy, and Jean is no longer Jean but called Andy's mother. It took me almost fifteen minutes to unpack what was actually happening here - for the longest time I was trying figure out who Jean's son was.

Either this perspective needs to be omniscient (and Jean is Jean and Andy is Andy) or it needs to be tied specifically to one or the other of these characters. But it has to be consistent. It doesn't work to keep jumping heads without warning.

I'm also just a tad concerned that we're getting a bit too much telling regarding emotion ("an exhausted man," "aware of his mother's disapproval", etc.), and I wasn't sure that this tone could sustain itself over the course of a novel. But without seeing more of the manuscript it's tough to know that for sure. I also wondered if a bit more could have been done to explain the deal that was going on since the perspective is ostensibly omniscient.

Ultimately, I worry that the narrative perspective may need to be re-thought here, but at the very least there's a style that could be used to good effect.


My redline:

Nathan Bransford wrote:TITLE: 'APOSTLE'
GENRE: CRIME
WORDCOUNT: 250

A white Transit van pulls into a long straight road by the town park, slows for the speed bumps, then indicates right. Pulls into Not sure about the repetition of "pulls into" in the first and second sentences a small car park in front of the two-story honeystone building that is Oakham Police Station.

For a minute, no-one gets out.

Rain falls on the van’s windscreen. Andy Webb sits in the driver’s seat, one hand still on the wheel, the other holding a phone to his right ear. An exhausted man in his late thirties, he’s staring fixedly ahead. He’s listening.

From the passenger seat, Jean Webb looks out at the grey morning. Across the road, towards the park bandstand, at the green swathes of grass falling away to the children’s swing and the play area Not a sentence - careful with these fragments. In the background, the huge church spire reaches to the sky. Leopard gargoyles strain high up on leashes, stone eyes blinded blinded by what? Not sure I understand this image. Kind of goes without saying that they can't see if their eyes are stone.

Her son Very confusing as Andy had first been described as Andy Webb, now suddenly he's "her son." It seems like a third person is being introduced, on the phone, is doing some kind of deal on a set of second hand radiators. Even now, in the car park of the bloody police station – even under these circumstances - he can’t let the job go. Although there’s no enthusiasm in his voice, even today he’s promising to drive up to Melton to pick up parts for plumbing.

Andy, aware of his mother’s disapproval another perspective shift, agrees to pay over the odds for the gear, and cuts the call. He throws the phone onto the van’s dashboard, it disappears into a mess of paperwork and empty takeaway wrappers. Closes his eyes, rubs them.
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Re: Page Critique Friday 8/27/10

Postby GeeGee55 » 27 Aug 2010, 14:25

Cudo's to Porthmeor Beach for submitting your query and cudos to all those who made the effort to comment. It's also brave to comment. Sometimes, after I do and then read other's comments, I think, I was so out to lunch on that one. Anyway for what it's worth:
TITLE: 'APOSTLE'
GENRE: CRIME
WORDCOUNT: 250

A white Transit van pulls into a long straight road by the town [color=#0000FF]park[/color], slows for the speed bumps, then indicates right. Pulls into a small car [color=#0000FF]park[/color] in front of the two-story honeystone building that is Oakham Police Station. - the repetition of park here threw me off, and I'm not familiar with the term car park, also, does it mean the cars are small or the place where the cars park is small?

For a minute, no-one gets out.

Rain falls on the van’s windscreen. Andy Webb sits in the driver’s seat, one hand still on the wheel, the other holding a phone to his right ear. An exhausted man in his late thirties, he’s staring fixedly ahead. He’s listening.

From the passenger seat, Jean Webb I think I need to know right here that she's his mother looks out at the grey morning. Across the road, towards the [color=#0000FF]park[/color] bandstand, at the green swathes of grass falling away to the children’s swing and the play area. This is a nitpick, but I think it reads better as: Across the road, towards the bandstand, green swathes of grass fall away to.. In the background, the huge - needs a more specific adjective, or maybe omit it church spire reaches to the sky. Leopard gargoyles strain high up on leashes, stone eyes blinded. - the use of blinded rather than blind gives a strange mood, makes me wonder by whom?

Her son, on the phone, is doing some kind of deal on a set of second hand radiators. Even now, in the car park of the bloody police station – even under these circumstances this might be an opportunity to give a hint at the circumstances - he can’t let the job go. Although there’s no enthusiasm in his voice, even today he’s promising to drive up to Melton to pick up parts for plumbing.

This change to describing Andy's POV was a bit too abrupt for me Andy, aware of his mother’s disapproval, agrees to pay over the odds for the gear, and cuts the call. He throws the phone onto the van’s dashboard, it disappears into a mess of paperwork and empty takeaway wrappers. Closes his eyes, rubs them.- This sentence fragment doesn't work for me. I like fragments, but they have to flow from the previous sentence, and this one doesn't [/quote]

The voice is very distant, but I'm okay with that. Maybe there is a reason you've chosen to present the work that way. It's certainly very visual; I can picture everything very well. And the situation, two people sitting in a van outside a police station, that's enough to get me interested.

Can't wait to see what Nathan has to say.
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Re: Page Critique Friday 8/27/10

Postby GeeGee55 » 27 Aug 2010, 14:32

And Nathan was posting at the same time as I was. Thanks to Nathan for keeping this page critique in the forums for those of us who are interested.
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Re: Page Critique Friday 8/27/10

Postby Regan Leigh » 27 Aug 2010, 17:20

I don't think I have anything constructive to add since you've already been given such good advice. But I did want to say thanks for sharing, Porthmeor Beach! I know it isn't easy to post your writing and allow others to view and dissect it. ;)
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